What are your religious views?

Worldenterer1 wrote: I was hoping that you might be able to help me understand your statement better. I don't see how someone's conscious could exist once their brain has decomposed. All consciousness is the brains interpretarion of signals. No brain means no signals, therefore no consciousness. I am not a brain expert, but that is my own vague idea.

Peter wrote: a simple question that I cant answer.Does our existance create consiousness and when we die it dies with us or is our body and brain able to accept consiousness and so it populates us while we live and then moves on when we die.

I need to think about this for a while, good questions here. Maybe it's like windows, when you die your consciousness gets a message that says: Human Brain (not responding) :lol:

Your conscious is based on your brain/thoughts, and if you are dead, your body stops functioning, leaving you to lose your physical body's conscious.

I am a Jedi Warrior ... 8-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

related movie...

http://www.themenwhostareatgoatsmovie.com/#home

... BTW nothing related to Freemasonry :lol:

[All the Best] --Andre

aamorim wrote: I am a Jedi Warrior ... 8-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

related movie...

http://www.themenwhostareatgoatsmovie.com/#home

... BTW nothing related to Freemasonry :lol:

[All the Best] --Andre

lol, I agree with you why join lesser evils like the masons or illuminati when there's a higher group :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGXVbIL745w&feature=related

I an a Christian - catholic. But I'm not a diehard devoted christian or anything. I go to a catholic school and I believe in God - who loves every person in the world and who gave us the gift of freewill. I also most definitely don't follow the Christian faith based on fear or the fear of hell - I'm not even sure if I believe in such a thing as 'hell'.

I am christian but I can't say I'm strictly religious because really no one is. I believe that there is nothing bad about lucid dreaming as long as you don't use them to do sinful thongs.

Jacob M S wrote: ...as long as you don't use them to do sinful thongs.

I'm sorry, but actually I prefer the sinful thongs to regular thongs. :)

To Be honest I'm an Atheist who believes in a higher power. The thought of existence coming from nothing is purely fictional that bends all physical laws. And even if there were a higher power, it leaves me with more question than if there weren't. I believe there is a higher power, not as a being with supernatural powers but just a creator who himself is trying to make sense of the world. So I don't think leaving our problems to a higher power is the best choice at hand.

And death, I believe is similar to a WILD. When you have an astral projection or an OBE your consciences wakes out of your body and this isn't anything magical as the Unified Field Theory in mechanics says that matter came into existence from a conscientiousness. Believe me its true! OBE's happen when our body and mind shuts off while our sub-conscience is still awake which is very similar to what happens when we die. So is it possible when we die our conscience wake's up and roams the world? Quiet bizarre, but its highly possible.

And a reason why there can't be a 'hell' or 'heaven' is cause if our conscience is sent to hell after death, it is illogical because hell is supposed to give us eternal pain but as your own experience when you have an astral projection your body can't feel pain. If you try to hold something you hand passes right through. Source: Myself, I'm 16 from India :)

NOOOOOOOOOOO CARSES!!!!! I meant things dang it not thongs. Why does the o have to be right next to the i?

Jacob M S wrote: NOOOOOOOOOOO CARSES!!!!! I meant things dang it not thongs. Why does the o have to be right next to the i?

We know. Were just bustin on ya.

isn't it interesting how a person can feel the wind, smell the wind, hear the wind, and even create some wind LOL!..... but not see the wind. Yet can still believe in the wind and it's power. The same goes for my HP, whom I call GOD. There are too many complex issues in this world to think that everyting started by chance. And when you have an OBE/Encounter, that totally seals the deal. This life is but a test. We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, but spiritual beings having a human experience. Once our bodies give way, our spirits "shed the glove" and reunite with the one almighty who created us. I would submit that cultivating some faith in things unseen would do a person good in getting along. Faith that education will help you to get a better job, Faith that the potential energy in a log can keep you warm, Faith that ......................

funkylogan64 wrote: isn't it interesting how a person can feel the wind, smell the wind, hear the wind, and even create some wind LOL!..... but not see the wind. Yet can still believe in the wind and it's power. The same goes for my HP, whom I call GOD. There are too many complex issues in this world to think that everyting started by chance. And when you have an OBE/Encounter, that totally seals the deal. This life is but a test. We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, but spiritual beings having a human experience. Once our bodies give way, our spirits "shed the glove" and reunite with the one almighty who created us.

I pretty much completely agree with this. I think life is a created simulation of sorts and we can see from lucid dreams how good we are at creating such "virtual realities". I believe that there are a lot more of these waiting for us when we finish here for all sorts of purposes concerning our spiritual evolution and we will be participating in their creation/operation.

funkylogan64 wrote: I would submit that cultivating some faith in things unseen would do a person good in getting along.

Good advice, even if it's not a traditional religous style faith in God. I agree in the value of believing in things we can't experience with our 5 human senses which are pretty limiting anyway. Even those who don't accept the idea of faith would agree that in lucid dreams we get exactly what we believe we will get. How is that not faith? There was one post where someone was saying that when ever they want to drive a certain car, they first reach for the keys. Or another is when you want to go somewhere, find a door that when you open it, that place will be on the other side. And what are these exercises called: Faith!

I havent been so good at summoning stuff in lucid dreams, I keep trying to find a gun so I can test out what happens if you die in a lucid dream ( im not suicidal just curious to see if you simply wake up or...?), but I can never seem to get it right

Jack Reacher wrote: I havent been so good at summoning stuff in lucid dreams, I keep trying to find a gun so I can test out what happens if you die in a lucid dream ( im not suicidal just curious to see if you simply wake up or...?), but I can never seem to get it right

One experiences death agonies and then wakes up after dying.

Good advice, even if it's not a traditional religous style faith in God. I agree in the value of believing in things we can't experience with our 5 human senses which are pretty limiting anyway. Even those who don't accept the idea of faith would agree that in lucid dreams we get exactly what we believe we will get. How is that not faith? There was one post where someone was saying that when ever they want to drive a certain car, they first reach for the keys. Or another is when you want to go somewhere, find a door that when you open it, that place will be on the other side. And what are these exercises called: Faith!

I agree completely. I find it funny sometimes when people say that science is not built on faith but in fact all it is, is faith. Faith that since something has worked a billion times and has continued to work that it will not fail in the future. The entirety of science is built upon faith. Sorry if I'm ranting a little. Also I would like to end this by saying that my sister used to be allergic to dairy and eggs. But one day when we were at a British church some of the leaders prayed for her and that very day she was healed and has continued to have eggs and dairy product for her entire life.

trouble8 wrote:

Good advice, even if it's not a traditional religous style faith in God. I agree in the value of believing in things we can't experience with our 5 human senses which are pretty limiting anyway. Even those who don't accept the idea of faith would agree that in lucid dreams we get exactly what we believe we will get. How is that not faith? There was one post where someone was saying that when ever they want to drive a certain car, they first reach for the keys. Or another is when you want to go somewhere, find a door that when you open it, that place will be on the other side. And what are these exercises called: Faith!

I agree completely. I find it funny sometimes when people say that science is not built on faith but in fact all it is, is faith. Faith that since something has worked a billion times and has continued to work that it will not fail in the future. The entirety of science is built upon faith. Sorry if I'm ranting a little. Also I would like to end this by saying that my sister used to be allergic to dairy and eggs. But one day when we were at a British church some of the leaders prayed for her and that very day she was healed and has continued to have eggs and dairy product for her entire life.

I agree with you guys about how humans can not sense everything, but I don't think that people should use this as evidence of a god. We have no idea what might be beyond our range of sensory.

I'm an Ortodox Christian like most of Serbs and I do beleve in God. I don't believe in every aspect of the Bible, but I do believe in most of them.

Dreams, however, don't have almost any connection with my faith since I see dreams as a product of mind and subconscious.

funkylogan64 wrote: There are too many complex issues in this world to think that everyting started by chance.

That's like saying "I don't understand how the magic trick works... so it must be real magic."

Rebecca wrote: That's like saying "I don't understand how the magic trick works... so it must be real magic."

Are you saying you don't believe in magic?

I was actually baptized a Catholic but chose to be a non believer as I grew up and came to senses. It was a good religion and people were kind at it but it was too much for me. Having a lot of other religions work to their own advantage, you sometimes feel like you could get away with the rudiments of the other that require a little too much. I like the idea of Buddhism which sort of embodies a complete religion, for me at least.

lucidinthe sky wrote:

Rebecca wrote:That's like saying "I don't understand how the magic trick works... so it must be real magic."

Are you saying you don't believe in magic?

There are a few ways to take this..... what do you mean exactly?

In stage magic, the magician creates the illusion that he can saw a woman in half. Just because I don't know how he does it, it doesn't mean she is literally sawed in half then magically morphs back into a whole woman again. It just means I've fallen victim to an illusion. It's fun to do this at magic shows because we enjoy the mystery. But to follow this mentality into real life is like choosing to live in a cage of suspended imagination.

In real life, magic is a way of saying we don't understand how something works. It's a cop out. I don't believe in cop outs when we have the critical thinking capacity to come up with real answers...

Rebecca wrote: In stage magic, the magician creates the illusion that he can saw a woman in half. Just because I don't know how he does it, it doesn't mean she is literally sawed in half then magically morphs back into a whole woman again. It just means I've fallen victim to an illusion.

Yes, that's just the point. We have to be careful not to fall into illusions, whether they are based on religion, magic or science. My lucid dreams are so convincingly real I know how easily we can be fooled. It's very difficult for me to tell the difference between a lucid dream reality and the waking world, although we know that dreams are illusions so to say.

As Einstien said, "reality is merely an illusion". Science has provided us with the best "model" of reality that we have, but it is a model and not to be confused with reality itself. As humans, we are too limited to perceive the universe as it really is. In my opinion, reality is experiential and objectivity is the biggest illusion of all.

lucidinthe sky wrote:

Rebecca wrote:In stage magic, the magician creates the illusion that he can saw a woman in half. Just because I don't know how he does it, it doesn't mean she is literally sawed in half then magically morphs back into a whole woman again. It just means I've fallen victim to an illusion.

Yes, that's just the point. We have to be careful not to fall into illusions, whether they are based on religion, magic or science. My lucid dreams are so convincingly real I know how easily we can be fooled. It's very difficult for me to tell the difference between a lucid dream reality and the waking world, although we know that dreams are illusions so to say.

As Einstien said, "reality is merely an illusion". Science has provided us with the best "model" of reality that we have, but it is a model and not to be confused with reality itself. As humans, we are too limited to perceive the universe as it really is. In my opinion, reality is experiential and objectivity is the biggest illusion of all.

I agree... And I feel that religion is the biggest illusion of all, because it's an outdated human artifact. I don't think it really, truly demonstrates progress for the human race on any front. And it doesn't shine light on the universe for me. It just shines light on human nature.

Science doesn't have all the answers either, but it is the best model we have, as you say. (You quote Einstein to suggest reality is merely an illusion, and this observation was based on a scientific model, which you say may well be flawed in itself. Aaak, paradox! :P )

So, yes, our understanding of reality is limited by our own senses and imagination. Every thought that passes through our brains in colored by subjectivity. You might argue that is the point! It certainly gives rise to creativity....

But it doesn't help us qualify objective truths, which we need to do (for example) to build space rockets and explore the universe. If we're going to learn more about reality, I think the answers are both out in the cosmos (where the "real" universe is, not our little bubble of life here on Earth) and right under our noses in the quantum world. Science is our vehicle for this, not religion.

As for magic... there are various definitions of we we all mean when we say this. I take it to mean neglecting the known laws of science to make it fit with the perceived illusion. Which would be silly, no?

I think religion helped to launch civilisation. I think it brought us together and helped the majority to cooperate. But now we have come so far that we don't really need it any more. We can live without it and still respect each and adhere to the moral code. We can be good to each other without having to believe in a God.

Once upon a time people might have been a bit lost and something like religion might have helped greatly. Today, we see how religions are marketed, how they are used as a means of control, and how they can spark wars and conflict.

I feel that religion is outdated. It may help some individuals to have faith and give them comfort but it also creates dangerous zealots. I think we must learn to be mentally strong and think for ourselves instead of relying on miracles and praying for the mercy of a God that has never been proved to exist.

Human beings go from being children to adults and in the process they grow out of Santa Claus and fairies. As a whole, and as we evolve intellectually as a species, I believe it is about time that we grew out of God.

I'm done with believing in magic ages ago. Today, I pragmatically believe in how lucid dreams can improve the quality of our lives in general. If something awful happened to me and I fell into depression, I would turn to lucid dreaming in order to problem-solve and cope with the situation emotionally.

I would do that because I know that lucid dreaming would deliver practical ends... unlike a God who is silent all the time and probably isn't there.

I will be happy the day religion is gone and we treat each other with respect and value because of our own desires to get on with one another. We dont need religion to do this and feel we have outgrown the need for it. The values are great but there is so much ownership in each sect and no tolerance for anothers view that it gives to its members on one hand and takes from society on another. It is a micro tool for outr species not a macro tool as it does not cross barriers and at the top are leaders that value power and money in a way that would make corperate CEO's blush

Having been raised Christian until I was ~10, then Spiritualist all through my teens, it was only in my 20s when I started thinking for myself and challenging these beliefs that I took for granted.

Finally, I started to look at it with the mindset: what if it is all a great hoax? I started out tentatively but then the truth became overwhelming and it all clicked for me. When I finally considered the possibility that spirits/the afterlife/ God/angels aren't real, I didn't feel scared/empty/alone - I felt liberated and enlightened. I was finally free to view reality through my own lens - not someone else's.

I know it's a touchy subject. As much as religious people resent atheists for invalidating their belief system, I resent the indoctrination of religion as a whole. Here's why:

If you come to believe in metaphysical concepts because you truly have examined the available evidence, unbiased, and come to that conclusion yourself, then I support you in your journey. But if you believe in eternal life simply because that's what you were taught to do by someone else, then I feel you are the victim of brainwashing. Yes that is possible. Please don't be naive. We live in world that is both beautiful and disgusting at once.

I wish someone had encouraged me to think independently when I was young. It would have saved me a lot of time listening to psychics and pursuing erroneous philosophies of the afterlife. I want to give others the insight I so lacked. You still get to choose your beliefs freely with your new point of view.

So, I guess I just want to make clear that my message of atheism is not stop believing in God. It's question what other people tell you. (Especially when it involves such a major, life-changing concept as this.) Atheism gives you the freedom to think without the boundaries of religion and take responsibility for everything you do in life. It does not defer to any mystical entities just because it makes you feel better. That's the real beauty of it. You get to own your own life!

EDIT: I want to put that last part in context. When my brother was a teenager he went to see a psychic, who told him he would marry, divorce, and marry again before having kids. Can you imagine the impact this may have had on his relationships if he truly believed in the spirit messages? I was also told by psychics to end a good friendship, stay in a doomed relationship, and to quit school and travel. DO NOT let anyone tell you what to believe or do, especially in the name of some magical unknown force which fails to rationalize its advice. Your life = your decisions.

When I finally considered the possibility that spirits/the afterlife/ God/angels aren't real, I didn't feel scared/empty/alone - I felt liberated and enlightened. I was finally free to view reality through my own lens - not someone else's.

I can relate to this.

If you come to believe in metaphysical concepts because you truly have examined the available evidence, unbiased, and come to that conclusion yourself, then I support you in your journey. But if you believe in eternal life simply because that's what you were taught to do by someone else, then I feel you are the victim of brainwashing. Yes that is possible. Please don't be naive. We live in world that is both beautiful and disgusting at once.

So true! So true!

EDIT: I want to put that last part in context. When my brother was a teenager he went to see a psychic, who told him he would marry, divorce, and marry again before having kids. Can you imagine the impact this may have had on his relationships if he truly believed in the spirit messages? I was also told by psychics to end a good friendship, stay in a doomed relationship, and to quit school and travel. DO NOT let anyone tell you what to believe or do, especially in the name of some magical unknown force which fails to rationalize its advice. Your life = your decisions.

Tut-tut... psychics.

I chose the second option. I went through a time where I didnt believe about a year ago. During this time I would feel so lost and alone. One day while crying outside I looked up and asked God to please give me sign and i swear that a shooting star. I admit after this I still refused to believe. I looked for ways not believe. Things just got worse in my life. Recently ive been very spiritual and thingshave gotten so much better. Ive even had dreams where God was talking to me inmy head telling me that he loves us all. I respect all religion and views. We are more than just humans. We are spirits havinh a hu,anexperience. I also believe that God isnt what hes made out to be. Theres much that Man doesnt understand.

I find myself agreeing with Sam Harris. Watch both videos as they interrelate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcO4TnrskE0

http://vimeo.com/38198059

Personaly, I do believe in a higher power. This world is too complex for it to be a random occurance. Saying it's random is like saying the dictionary was first created by an explosion in a printing press. Plus look at the evidence He's shown us. Our Lady of Fatima (miracle of the sun) or Padre Pio (the stigmatist). Those 2 situations are unable to be explained by science. How do you explain holes appearing in the hands and feet out of nowhere, and still not healing (or host an infection), and constantly bleed, even after 50 years? You can't. Simple as that.

Hope I didn't anger anyone. My apologies if I did. Just my 2 cents. ;)

This world is too complex for it to be a random occurance.

Nah. This won't cut it. You need something more substantial than this. Did you know that the world has changed a lot over thousands and thousands of years? A chaotic universe would have had enough time to stumble upon this complexity and apparent "order" from our beloved anthropological view. I'm not even going to mention the fact that a cloud of gas (simpler form) formed the solar system. I won't even go into detail about the fact that the sun converts 600 million tonnes of hydrogen (simple atomic structure) into helium (slightly more complex) every second. While this prevents our star from collapsing in on itself, it is also slowly effecting its demise. You want to talk about which of the effects has more meaning to you?

Saying it's random is like saying the dictionary was first created by an explosion in a printing press.

No, it isn't. It could still have stumbled upon what we see today. You forget that we used to be ape-like creatures that hardly thought about things and pretty much followed instinctive behaviour when stimulated by the environment. Overtime, our consciousness-lacking "lizard brains" evolved more complex layers and... voila! Now we have a thinking brain and self-awareness (most of the time). The computational power of the modern brain is such that it is capable of analysing itself and asking questions about reality in a profound way. Thus, your analogy is moot. We evolved language in order to communicate and aid our survival. Recently, it has even been proposed that our brains have evolved to argue and persuade people and not even to be rational. In this view, our biological systems have evolved to survive as best as it can with what it has and continues to adapt to the changing environment.

However you want to interpret this, it is still an environment stimulating an organism - particles interacting with particles - vibrating matter in motion - cause and effect - all energy. It only has meaning if we say so. Hence why, the dictionary, however you view it, ties in with the randomness of cause and effect (like boiling water bubbling up in a crescendo as the temperature rises).

If an alien being saw a dictionary for the first time, it might as well been "created by an explosion in a printing press". The text becomes meaningless if you change the context.

Our Lady of Fatima (miracle of the sun) or Padre Pio (the stigmatist). Those 2 situations are unable to be explained by science. How do you explain holes appearing in the hands and feet out of nowhere, and still not healing (or host an infection), and constantly bleed, even after 50 years? You can't. Simple as that.

Have you ever seen a miracle happen? This expresses your naivete about the world and its shady characters. There is no concrete evidence whatsoever that any miracles ever took place apart from mass delusion and confirmation bias amongst people. Their have been more convincing illusions demonstrated by the likes of James Randi and Derren Brown than so-called miracles from hearsay.

I don't know about science wasting its time in defrauding certain acts, but, so far, it has helped us enormously with the amazing technology it has spawned. You have a computer in front of you that enables you to express your views because of science and certainly not because of a god and his miracles. Furthermore, I know a 4-year-old boy who is in a critical condition with Neuroblastoma (a form of cancer). Meanwhile, in the paper, a convicted paedophile is released from jail and wins the lottery. Your god, if he exists, has a very weird sense of humour...

To further illustrate my point, I find myself precisely agreeing with Sam Harris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcO4TnrskE0

it has even been proposed that our brains have evolved to argue and persuade people and not even to be rational

I know people like this....it could be a horrible truth and the beginning of the end, we will get a very emotional race that reacts rather that thinks and acts.

Peter wrote: I know people like this....it could be a horrible truth and the beginning of the end, we will get a very emotional race that reacts rather that thinks and acts.

hehe I've met several people just like that as well. Mostly on forums such as these though. Strange. :)

@Summerlander: I'm not here to fight over who's right/wrong. I'm just stating my 2 cents. Although I do respect your opinion, & thank you for replying. We are both (or at least I am) set in our ways. Trying to disprove one another will get us nowhere, don't you agree? :D

Summerlander wrote: You have a computer in front of you that enables you to express your views because of science and certainly not because of a god and his miracles. Furthermore, I know a 4-year-old boy who is in a critical condition with Neuroblastoma (a form of cancer). Meanwhile, in the paper, a convicted paedophile is released from jail and wins the lottery. Your god, if he exists, has a very weird sense of humour...

God did not make technology. Man made technology and god made man.

Trying to suggest that God was responsible for those incidents is completely the wrong way to look at it. My 12 year old cousin died from cancer and I do not blame it on god. In our world diseases and rouge cells are part of life, could you imagine a world where everyone is constantly free of burden and illness, people live forever and no challenges ever surface throughout their whole life? God gave us freewill so we can make our own choices and live freely. He did not foresee a world where such horrible people with such twisted, sad minds would exist. We must remember that once we were all small innocent babies, criminals did not begin as criminals - circumstances in their life changed them, affected them. And obviuosly God would not interfare with the luck of the lottery. That's just some of my personal philosophy, anyway. :)

[ Post made via iPod ] Image

Kranter wrote: @Summerlander: I'm not here to fight over who's right/wrong. I'm just stating my 2 cents. Although I do respect your opinion, & thank you for replying. We are both (or at least I am) set in our ways. Trying to disprove one another will get us nowhere, don't you agree? :D

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to disprove you. I'm just trying to think a little bit more about other possibilities within the fact that people can be deceitful.

LucidKey13 wrote:

Summerlander wrote: You have a computer in front of you that enables you to express your views because of science and certainly not because of a god and his miracles. Furthermore, I know a 4-year-old boy who is in a critical condition with Neuroblastoma (a form of cancer). Meanwhile, in the paper, a convicted paedophile is released from jail and wins the lottery. Your god, if he exists, has a very weird sense of humour...

God did not make technology. Man made technology and god made man.

Trying to suggest that God was responsible for those incidents is completely the wrong way to look at it. My 12 year old cousin died from cancer and I do not blame it on god. In our world diseases and rouge cells are part of life, could you imagine a world where everyone is constantly free of burden and illness, people live forever and no challenges ever surface throughout their whole life? God gave us freewill so we can make our own choices and live freely. He did not foresee a world where such horrible people with such twisted, sad minds would exist. We must remember that once we were all small innocent babies, criminals did not begin as criminals - circumstances in their life changed them, affected them. And obviuosly God would not interfare with the luck of the lottery. That's just some of my personal philosophy, anyway. :)

[ Post made via iPod ] Image

Actually, I'm not blaming God. I'm saying he is not there at all. Hypothetically speaking, if there was a God, and if is as infinite and omnipotent as they say, then that pretty much makes him responsible for whatever happens, don't you think? It also would enable him to prevent innocent children from suffering. As Sam Harris put it: either he is impotent or evil. - I'll add something extra: ...or he doesn't exist (nothing but an anthropological fabrication, like Santa Claus, only harder to outgrow).

The world is the way it is because it is random or predetermined by the cause and effect that began with the Big Bang. No God pulling the strings. On free will, there is no free will either. It is an illusion. You may think that you are making decisions but there is much evidence that shows your will is anything but free. check this link where it has been discussed extensively and you will understand why:

http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=1061.0

He did not foresee a world where such horrible people with such twisted, sad minds would exist.

According to the philosophy, he created such horrible people. According to the philosophy, he is omnipotent - saying he could not foresee something is very contradictory, don't you think?

Another book on the way - cheers

Forgive me, for I can't qoute on the device I'm using type this (my PS3 internet browser). @ both of you: I propose this question: Can an ant solve an algebra problem? No. Its brain does not contain the capacity to do such a thing. Humans are no different. Of course we can solve an algebra problem, but we cannot understand God. God does what he does for a reason. Trying to understand is just like an algebraic ant. It is impossible. Why? Because we are not God, nor will we ever be. So to blame God for something like that is just folly. I can understand why you would, but He has His reasons. ;)

If you want to put that in perspective the there at two sides to an ant brain and neither one is valid to make a judgement only hold beliefs and as I have said I dont not believe or not believe but have no need for religion in my life

imo if there is a god, he aint doing shit

Summerlander wrote: Actually, I'm not blaming God. I'm saying he is not there at all. Hypothetically speaking, if there was a God, and if is as infinite and omnipotent as they say, then that pretty much makes him responsible for whatever happens, don't you think? It also would enable him to prevent innocent children from suffering. As Sam Harris put it: either he is impotent or evil. - I'll add something extra: ...or he doesn't exist (nothing but an anthropological fabrication, like Santa Claus, only harder to outgrow).

The world is the way it is because it is random or predetermined by the cause and effect that began with the Big Bang. No God pulling the strings. On free will, there is no free will either. It is an illusion. You may think that you are making decisions but there is much evidence that shows your will is anything but free. check this link where it has been discussed extensively and you will understand why:

http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=1061.0

He did not foresee a world where such horrible people with such twisted, sad minds would exist.

According to the philosophy, he created such horrible people. According to the philosophy, he is omnipotent - saying he could not foresee something is very contradictory, don't you think?

I see where you are coming from, I can see where everyone is coming from - especially with the proof and advancement of science. Instead of getting into a huge disscussion about religion etc. I would just like to leave it at the simple fact that we all have our different beliefs/non beliefs! ;)

Kranter wrote: Forgive me, for I can't qoute on the device I'm using type this (my PS3 internet browser). @ both of you: I propose this question: Can an ant solve an algebra problem? No. Its brain does not contain the capacity to do such a thing. Humans are no different. Of course we can solve an algebra problem, but we cannot understand God. God does what he does for a reason. Trying to understand is just like an algebraic ant. It is impossible. Why? Because we are not God, nor will we ever be. So to blame God for something like that is just folly. I can understand why you would, but He has His reasons. ;)

But isn't this just making excuses for Him and to perpetuate His supposed existence? I'll tell you where the folly appears to be: If the president of the United States orders someone's execution, even if it is a matter of national security, he is bad and might be labelled a murderer. If he goes to war, he's genocidal. Yet, if God orders the killing of people through messengers like Moses, it can only be good and right because it comes from him. Your post illustrates the point I was trying to make very clearly.

If we can't justify his actions logically, then it is because He is God and He works in mysterious ways. and we are supposed to just accept his existence without a shred of evidence. Come on...

People don't need to believe in a God to be good and kind to each other.

You say without a shred of evidence? Mircles are evidence. Feeling his presence is evidence. Seeing Him work in people's lives is evidence. You can easily discard all of this as not being evidence, but to me, it is. That is my evidence. Laugh at me if you want. It won't change a damn thing. I know there is a god. How? I just do. I have nothing to prove. Live your life the way you wish, as I will mine. ;)

I understand what you are saying and I wouldn't laugh at you for your beliefs. But I am just trying to understand how can someone so readily accept something that was exposed to them as an unquestionable truth when the so-called evidence is not solid enough and is so scientifically dismissed.

For instance, John Nash felt the presence of certain characters around him with all his senses. To him they were real. To everyone else, they were Nash's delusions and he was in fact diagnosed as a schizophrenic.

One day, during a hallucination superimposed on reality, Nash had a moment of lucidity when he realised that one of his characters had not aged. From then on he made progress and he was able to stay more focused on reality.

You see how even feeling God's presence is not enough? How can you be so dismissive of the possibility that what is going on here is mass delusion? I'm just posing these questions because I'd really like to understand where you are coming from.

One day, during a hallucination superimposed on reality, Nash had a moment of lucidity when he realised that one of his characters had not aged. From then on he made progress and he was able to stay more focused on reality.

Thats interesting, could we assist recovery but teaching them all how to LD? and then imagine the places they could go and what could be learnt. Could be that one of our most valuable resources for exploring consciousness is being dumbed down by drugs and locked up.

Here is my belief: I believe in everything, and nothing. I do and do not believe in God. No one can or can't say he exists. Perhaps he does not have human conscience perception. Perhaps he does not have an ego or a personality. So he will not stop a pedophile from winning the lottery, or cure a child's cancer, perhaps he doesn't think like humans do. Perhaps he didn't exist, and human consciousness spawned him into existence.

As for the people who depend strongly on science, let me tell you, science is a religion. The so-called facts you are told have the same place in possible existence as God does. What's an atom? Do atoms truly exist, or are they simply made up by scientists because everything needs an explanation? I think the main reason people believe in science so strongly is because it's so accepted, and if you're a "logical" thinker, you're perceived as a person of "intellect", "rational", and having a strong grip on reality. But the truth is, no one can say if we continue to exist after death. No one has died and come back to tell the tale. Perhaps the brain doesn't really contribute to consciousness at all. As we experience consciousness, perhaps the brain simply reacts. Perhaps the brain doesn't react at all, we simply perceive is so. Anything is possible to someone of a reasonably open mind. I think if you simply accept what science tells you is fact, it's no different than following a religion. What is accepted in the mainstream is science, it's not called a religion because it uses technology, human created technology. Only to understand what humans can, and nothing more. What they see through a microscope could be disfigured, dismembered or not even the same thing as what it really is.

As most other people on here, I'm not trying to force my personal beliefs on others, it's just something to think about. I just don't like it when I see people on their high-horses, acting as if they know the truth, when they actually only know what science tells them. The one and only truth is that we can't truly know anything.

Perhaps...

I think there's something going on with consciousness. That's because I'm afraid of death and nothingness :D .

I think religions are interesting. Not too keen on the troubles. Especially when grown men can't watch football together without stabbing each other.

I'm not religious. I don't believe in god. I'll apologize at the gates if I'm wrong lol.

Ty8200 wrote: Here is my belief: I believe in everything, and nothing. I do and do not believe in God. No one can or can't say he exists. Perhaps he does not have human conscience perception. Perhaps he does not have an ego or a personality. So he will not stop a pedophile from winning the lottery, or cure a child's cancer, perhaps he doesn't think like humans do. Perhaps he didn't exist, and human consciousness spawned him into existence.

As for the people who depend strongly on science, let me tell you, science is a religion. The so-called facts you are told have the same place in possible existence as God does. What's an atom? Do atoms truly exist, or are they simply made up by scientists because everything needs an explanation? I think the main reason people believe in science so strongly is because it's so accepted, and if you're a "logical" thinker, you're perceived as a person of "intellect", "rational", and having a strong grip on reality. But the truth is, no one can say if we continue to exist after death. No one has died and come back to tell the tale. Perhaps the brain doesn't really contribute to consciousness at all. As we experience consciousness, perhaps the brain simply reacts. Perhaps the brain doesn't react at all, we simply perceive is so. Anything is possible to someone of a reasonably open mind. I think if you simply accept what science tells you is fact, it's no different than following a religion. What is accepted in the mainstream is science, it's not called a religion because it uses technology, human created technology. Only to understand what humans can, and nothing more. What they see through a microscope could be disfigured, dismembered or not even the same thing as what it really is.

As most other people on here, I'm not trying to force my personal beliefs on others, it's just something to think about. I just don't like it when I see people on their high-horses, acting as if they know the truth, when they actually only know what science tells them. The one and only truth is that we can't truly know anything.

I think I see what you're getting at - that ultimately there is no "truth" because everything is a human interpretation. And there could be something inherent about human perception that prevents us from seeing the big picture.

I have trouble referring to science as a religion though. There is an importance difference to acknowledge, and it makes them very different models of understanding reality. For example...

The rules and principles of religion are dictated by the founders or those who inherit the positions of religious power, and the followers have to lump the consequences; there is no compromise, you just follow and obey. It's a dictatorship. It forces you to be closed-minded.

**Science **meanwhile is a culmination of opinions and theories based on the most accurate observations we have to date. It is constantly open for revision, based on better evidence and better technologies through which we can observe reality. Anyone can contribute new scientific models and change the way we see the world. It's more like a democracy. It is open-minded for this very reason, and anyone who says science is closed-minded needs to go back and check the definition of "Science"! It is the open-minded, open-to-revision development of knowledge based on observed fact.

Both models can be flawed, of course...

Much of the foundations of say, Christian faith, can be flawed based on current information we have. To cling the concept of Creationism in one hand, while holding copious evidence for Evolution in the other, makes no sense to me. This is a MAJOR flaw of religion, which it does time and time again in the light of 21st century technology. (I say technology in the place of science because many religious people now see "science" as a bad thing, as the enemy, even though it powers the internet you're using right now. If science is so "wrong", how does it visibly PROVE itself every day in your own life with so much "right"?)

Can science be flawed? Yes, but in retrospect. Plenty of scientific theories have been chucked down the toilet when newer, better scientific theories came in to replace them with more accurate models. The important thing to note here is progression. Scientists do not cling onto debunked beliefs when there are more fitting answers available. When we discovered that epileptic fits were caused by disturbed brain function, we sought to treat it neurologically. Scientists didn't continue to drill holes in the skull or conduct exorcisms to expel the demons. Science insists: we MUST progress!

Anyway that's why I really can't lump the two into the same bucket.... ;)

Existentially, perhaps everything we know is wrong. But for practical purposes of surviving as a species, we all have to decide which is the best path for human progression. I don't believe the best way to decide is to go on a gut feeling or a desire to survive life after death, but to examine how religious indoctrination shapes our world today (for better and for worse, let's not pick and choose), who controls these institutions (and to what end, getting behind the propaganda), and take a frank look at what our world will be like in 100 years if we became a strictly science-driven or strictly faith-driven species.

Now some words on this subject from someone who is infinitely more intelligent than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQorzOS-F6w

He has a simple grasp of this reality - thanks for the link