Won't this prove astral projection?

Hi,

I made an account just to ask this question. This is mainly aimed for Rebecca, but anyone, of course, can answer or test this out themselves. I just read Rebecca's view on astral projection, and to clarify I have very little experience with it, so I was hesitant to even create this thread. Yet, here I am typing away.

It goes as follows, the spiritual people believe astral projection is entering a spiritual realm, and the lucid dreamers believe it's still a form of lucid dreaming. That's the basis of what I understood from it. Now, I have read a lot about lucid dreaming and astral projection (again, I have minimum experience in both), but what keeps nagging me is that there is a very simple test which you could do to prove whether the two 'states' are actually seperate.

If you've experienced both lucid dreaming and astral projecting (or lucid dreamer pov: OBE) multiple times, you'll know the primary differences (feel, flow, dimensional qualities etc.) that seperate the two. This is key. When you know if you're experiencing a lucid dream or 'astral projection'.

This is the test, and it's very simple. You're in Room A and there is another person in Room B. In Room B, the person has written something on paper, something you could never guess, and has left it open, so that anyone that walks in the room could instantly see it. You having no knowledge of what is written on that paper, go to sleep in Room A. You then go into astral projection (or however you say it), fly into Room B (through the wall), read what is written on the paper, and go back into your body. You wake up, write down what you read, and compare.

Now, if astral projection was another form of lucid dreaming, your subconscious would have made something up and you could draw a conclusion that astral projection or OBE is just another form of dreaming. However, if you knew exactly what was written on the paper without having physically gone into the other room, and after repeating the experiment several times, you could conclude that astral projection is something different than lucid dreaming.

Again, the key is to know precisely whether you are in a dream state or an astral projection state (whether their the same or not). Once you know that with certainty, you can test it.

I still struggle to lucid dream, yet alone have an astral projection. I will definitely attempt this once I have mastered the two, but that will take time. In the mean time I'm very curious to hear what others have to say, and especially Rebecca.

Thank you for reading this, I appreciate it.

Hi Tarquin

What you've suggested is a very good scientific test of astral projection.

I think it has actually been attempted before, but the results were always hazy. For instance, the volunteer claimed to see the paper in the other room, as they expected, but their "astral vision" was too foggy to read the digits and so the actual data retrieval didn't work. (In unconscious dreams, the language centers of the brain are largely shut down and even struggle to become very active while lucid dreaming.)

Other times, they say they can read the digits, but forgot them upon waking. (This is also common to the dreaming brain which struggles to process memory as efficiently as the waking brain, even when lucid. This is why it's so easy to forget your dreams.)

You may hear anecdotes where the volunteer claimed to successfully read and recall a series of digits in an astral state, but sadly these kinds of results are so far anecdotal and not performed in a controlled scientific setting. There is always the risk of other factors and even a bit of embellishment which can't be accepted as proof.

If such an experiment HAS been successfully performed in controlled conditions, I for one would love to hear about it!! It would literally overhaul what we know about physical reality and perception. So, such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and so far we have not seen any scientifically verifiable (or repeatable) evidence.

(Also I should add that, where people can identify differences between their typical lucid dreams and astral projection experiences.... I believe there are different ways of accessing the lucid dream state, such as false awakenings or WILDs, which give rise to a more intense experience and it can therefore seem a lot different from your "typical" lucid dream.)

I've been conducting experiments of my own and so far it seems that it is all lucid dreaming. Those OOBEs are, in the majority of cases, evident of being WILDs with the illusion of separation from the physical body.

You are better off talking to dream characters and listen out for the interesting things they may say. It can prove more beneficial and be practical in everyday life.

Rebecca wrote: Hi Tarquin

What you've suggested is a very good scientific test of astral projection.

I think it has actually been attempted before, but the results were always hazy. For instance, the volunteer claimed to see the paper in the other room, as they expected, but their "astral vision" was too foggy to read the digits and so the actual data retrieval didn't work. (In unconscious dreams, the language centers of the brain are largely shut down and even struggle to become very active while lucid dreaming.)

Other times, they say they can read the digits, but forgot them upon waking. (This is also common to the dreaming brain which struggles to process memory as efficiently as the waking brain, even when lucid. This is why it's so easy to forget your dreams.)

You may hear anecdotes where the volunteer claimed to successfully read and recall a series of digits in an astral state, but sadly these kinds of results are so far anecdotal and not performed in a controlled scientific setting. There is always the risk of other factors and even a bit of embellishment which can't be accepted as proof.

If such an experiment HAS been successfully performed in controlled conditions, I for one would love to hear about it!! It would literally overhaul what we know about physical reality and perception. So, such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and so far we have not seen any scientifically verifiable (or repeatable) evidence.

Tests like these are incredibly hard to pull off. This makes providing this kind of proof extremely hard. There aren't enough people good enough at this kind of stuff to provide this kind of "solid" evidence.

I've found that trying to prove the veracity of astral projection/lucid dreaming as "real" to other people is quite beyond the point anyway. Each individual will come about their desire to learn this activity one their own terms and at their own time.

In essence, you can't provide "proof" to the unwilling. Or as the Chinese used to say, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." :)

(Also I should add that, where people can identify differences between their typical lucid dreams and astral projection experiences.... I believe there are different ways of accessing the lucid dream state, such as false awakenings or WILDs, which give rise to a more intense experience and it can therefore seem a lot different from your "typical" lucid dream.)

Right! It's all perception and point of view. How you CHOOSE to view it has a huge impact upon WHAT you'll experience and HOW you experience it. :)

This is why I find it's very important when teaching new people to this activity that they don't begin by labeling everything they experience. An experience in the non-physical is just that... an experience in the non-physical.

I think you all need to read Robert Monroe's books.... he has proved it to be real and documents it in his books in great detail...

His books are a lovely blend of fact and fiction with little between the two at times so prove nothing at all. I have read them and many others and his like most have proven facts that they state but are not released to the wider community to verify.

So did Robert Monroe state his books were a blend of fact and fiction or is that just 'your' opinion

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My opinion just like your views are your opinion. Neither you or me are Robert Monroe and so we can only read and make up our own minds.

Ryan some of us follow the evidence and not what we want to believe ;)

To the original poster: I rolled two natural yahtzees in a row, the chance of one is 1,296 to one, the chance of two 1,679,616 does that prove telekinesis is real? I've also won 15 coin flips in a row is that proof? I got a roulette wheel and made being the casino my summer job :twisted:. My father found out about it and made me put both my bankroll and profits on one spin of the wheel- I still remember the look of shock and terror on his face when he was reaching for my money and I told him to look at the wheel :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :D :D :D :D :D None of this is proof in the least for telekinesis. One needs an objective experiment with a large sample that is then independently confirmed by someone else to prove anything.

OBE can happen while awake either spontaneously or intentionally or in dreams. Monroe did only the dream ones as far as I know, they should be assumed dreams. The awake ones are the only ones to test IMO or the near death ones. The results of the aware study are suppose to be coming out this year and have provide strong evidence for or against the OBE are real question.

Anthony Peake has written a good discussion of the research into OBE's, astral projection, remote viewing (The Outer Body Experience) documenting the good and bad about the experiments and suggesting that the reason such experiments don't work is that the person is actually within, on a different plane (although he did think that a couple of them could've been remote viewing). For example, research subjects have claimed to see people in a different town and even said what they were doing and wearing, but there is often something different about the surroundings or the events that don't quite add up. People having an OBE might think they watch themselves below but often there is something in the room that wasn't there. Personally, I doubt you actually travel anywhere, but the possibilities of where you might travel within are limitless. There are a lot of similarities between astral projection and lucid dreaming, but for AP you may not need to be asleep and then wake, just be in a hypnotic state. I'm not sure it matters, really, although it's interesting. I'm also not sure that it matters whether you interpret it spiritually or not - people create their own reality and interpret it according to their own journey.

Snaggle wrote: Ryan some of us follow the evidence and not what we want to believe ;)

:lol:

You couldn't have put it better!

Well you could debate that one all day.
You could present ten people with the same "facts", and they will interpret them differently according to their background, culture, religious beliefs and previous reading etc. So I don't think you can seriously say you believe in fact, not what you want to believe. You want to believe in fact and you are not so open to believing in the unproved.
There is also the problem that most of what we are talking about is really hard to verify. If the tests devised don't work does that prove the experience didn't happen, or that we are not getting exactly what happens in the experience. Interesting stuff. The only certain mind is a closed one, I say.

I think you fumble your words, friend. Facts are not something to be believed. They are established truths and are therefore things which are known. If people, like scientists and inventors didn't agree on anything, nothing that works would ever be achieved. Take a look around and you will see that our technology is evidence for it. In fact look at your computer right now. Beliefs comefrom hypothesis and have no subtance against, say, the rocket science theory that was tested and proved to be practical in launching rockets into space. Belief, faith, or biased interpretations dont come into the equation when getting to the bottom of things.

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Yes, but if you read some quantum physics you will see that scientists often disagree, that there are always new hypotheses and new experiments to try to prove these with varying degrees of success, requiring new experiments to be designed. Knowledge and Reality is a whole field of study on its own. Science is not just about proving facts, but having the imagination to explore possibilities. Anyhoo, if you look at my original response, the facts so far don't appear to prove that people leave their physical body during astral travel, but they feel as though they do. I think they're probably in an altered state and the mind projects what it wants or needs to see. I just don't think it matters much if people think they are leaving their body or not. It's more important what happens through the experience.

But that's just me. Part of my work involves therapy. My clients may hold certain beliefs and whether they are true or false is less important than whether they are helpful or unhelpful. If they are unhelpful I help them unravel them and replace them. If their beliefs are working for them, even if I don't think they are "true" (e.g. in the case of some religious beliefs) I leave it alone. As an example - A child and his mother are involved in a car crash. The mother is killed and the distraught child spends the night in hospital. Next day the child is sitting up smiling and tells the doctor that he saw his mother standing at the end of his bed, smiling and telling him that she will always be there for him. This is a helpful belief that may comfort the child for years to come. Doctor doesn't believe that you can see dead people because it can't be proven, and tells the child he is hallucinating due to trauma and it will stop in a couple of days. Imposing his interpretation of the event on the child robs the child of the comfort of his own interpretation. Anyway, we've strayed from the original poster's question, but that's the angle I was coming from. Sorry that was a long post.

Don't worry about the long post. I can be pretty bad myself. Quantum physics happens to be an area of interest of mine, so much so that I will recommend "The Quantum Universe: Why everything that can happen does happen" by Brian Cox who has worked at CERN. The book will expose a lot of tripe that unfairly distorts what the quantum realm is all about by a lot of pseudoscientists out there. One is better off listening to the experts that deal directly with the area of research. Quantum mechanics are weird but that doesn't mean that something supernatural is going on. It's just that, for their calculations to make sense and predict an outcome, one has to assume that on a quantum level there is no such thing as possible and impossible, only probable and improbable come into it. Science does not yet have all the answers, but, let's not forget that quantum theory helped us to come up with the transistor, one of the greatest inventions of our time. The theory works even though there are many versions of it, some more hypothetical and others with more substance. The book mentions that the reader shouldn't be surprised if something like the Higgs boson was found - and surely enough they found it.

The belief in spirits and an afterlife is a different matter. I can't imagine why a materialist view would rob children or even adults of imagination. Many fantasy films and literature have been produced by creative and artistic individuals who grew up in materialism. In fact, I think telling children that an astral plane inhabited by ghosts exists can limit their scope and can discourage them from investigating or considering other worldviews if they live in the delusion that such esoteric views are an established truth. No hypothesis should be passed off as an established truth. This is why science has theories that are tested and lead to falsifiable predictions. Please understand that falsifiable does not mean false, but rather, in this context, that something can either be proved to be correct or incorrect via experimentation. Most of the time, because scientific theories are so substantial and involve calculations, their predictions turn out to be true.

To finalise, in the history of science there is not one shred of empirical evidence for the supernatural. They can find a particle that gives all other mass to different degrees and yet not a shred of evidence for a ghost inside the human body or a spiritual plane where the deceased supposedly go as discarnate being. The only evidence we have is that damage to the brain can destroy your mental faculties. I recommend that you take a look at Cristof Koch work, which is fairly recent, and the integration theory of consciousness. It won't be long before we solve this puzzle. To my satisfation, science has already demonstrated how, when we dream or hallucinate, the brain is making up realities in the absence or distortion of sensory input.

Lucid dreaming stands apart from the waking state and ordinary dreaming as a hybrid state in its own right. It bandwidth of brain activity is Gamma and the areas of the brain associated with self awareness and self-assessment light up. Check out the Planck Institute's findings on the lucid state. Very interesting and provides insights into the nature of consciousness.

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Seachange wrote: The only certain mind is a closed one, I say.

I think that's the best thing I got out of this thread.

Skepticism is a good thing, but not if it blocks you from being open to things being different than you think, whatever your perfect reason for thinking it. It's really hard to learn anything new if you think you know everything already. Always having to be right about everything is often a sign of insecurity. Many people who are trying to "prove" everything with endless debate are really just trying to convince themselves. This is your dream character speaking.

I agree with lucidinthe,and Seachange. To be open for me is: Yes-But :)

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out. Anyway, you guys seem to be ignoring scientific evidence. In a way, anyone who favours one hypothesis because it sounds fantastic, and subscribes to it without any evidence whatsoever, has already given up on searching for answers and is being close-minded to the path that science points at.

Hmm, I feel this discussion has fallen for the dualistic trick between whether 1 or 0 is superior or more complete (science vs spirituality, astral projection vs dream generation, etc)

If you listen to the "spiritual" people they are always referring to an inwards journey that reflects the world, which sounds much like what dream walking does. I think people got caught up on thinking that astral projection was an outwards journey, not an inwards journey that goes outwards.

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Summerlander wrote: Beliefs comefrom hypothesis and have no subtance against, say, the rocket science theory that was tested and proved to be practical in launching rockets into space. Belief, faith, or biased interpretations dont come into the equation when getting to the bottom of things.

Why can't anyone have a discussion on this forum regarding things of non-scientifc nature without being subject to your constant critism and demeaning comments? We're not here to prove things to your satisfaction or to entertain your need for endless debate. I think everyone on this forum is aware that you don't agree with anything that someone can't provide scientific evidence for.

No one is allowed to have a conversation about God, afterlife, consciousness, sprituality or anything else you don't agree to without being subject to a 3 page diatribe about how "unscientific" it is.

A lot of us are searching for answers, and it would be nice be able to have a conversation that isn't constantly interrupted by the Scientific Method Police. I'm interested in your opinion but getting a bit tired of the lectures.

To me it is all in the brain. The mind can acquire a phase state (around 40 Hz of Gamma bandwidth of brain activity) which compounds REM sleep (where most of your dreaming occurs) and consciousness (referring to waking consciousness and self-awareness). The phenomenon is sometimes called paradoxical sleep in scientific circles.

It is during this hybrid stage that people encounter all sorts of experiences and they call them by many names like lucid dreaming (pragmatic), conscious dreaming (also pragmatic and less of a misnomer), out-of-body experience (accurate only in terms or perception), astral projection (belief-centric interpretation), sleep paralysis hallucinations (movement in phase space desired and ideal), alien abductions (the phase can explain many of them), numinous experiences (again, the phase state is involved here), near-death experiences (the phase is partly involved but not always the case in such traumatic instances), false awakenings (pre-lucid/unrecognised phase) etc.

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Are we trying to debate proof of astral projection or where astral projection occurs. All forms of aware dreaming is astral projection so no debate there, where we are when we astral project, lucid dream, phase is the sticky one. For me its all in a local space created by our own awareness, in our heads and the same place as all other reality just turned around 180 degrees

lucidinthe sky wrote: Maybe I'm crazy, but I think we are always out of body and that's the natural state. I think the issue is our awareness of being out of body. We are just not always aware of the separation which would probably make our waking life too confusing.

I couldn't agree more.
However, I'd take it one step further... and say that there is no physical, there is no body... it's all virtual.

When we do become aware of it, it's quite an amazing experience. In almost all of my lucid dreams I am aware of the fact the sleeping body is in the bed somewhere else which has nothing to do with where "I" (the other part) is. There is an experience of complete separation and of a separate existence. I am in a very real world doing things without my physical body and my physical body is in bed sleeping in a state of paralysis so it can't do anything even if it wanted to. Except of course to breathe and keep it's heart beating.

Being aware of more than one reality frame at a time. It's quite amazing. There's actually no limitation to how many realities you can experience at once... although most people (including myself lol) can't seem to work with more than two... MAYBE three at once.

Sorry in advance for the long post.

Peter wrote: Are we trying to debate proof of astral projection or where astral projection occurs. All forms of aware dreaming is astral projection so no debate there, where we are when we astral project, lucid dream, phase is the sticky one. For me its all in a local space created by our own awareness, in our heads and the same place as all other reality just turned around 180 degrees

I think what you are saying is the debate is not about whether it occurs, but where it occurs. If so I agree and remain a skeptic about astral projection occuring as an interaction with the physical plane, but probably not for the same reason that many others do. I believe it is possible, but very improbable. Our universe functions not on possibilty, but probablity. If someone could astral project into the physical world at will, they could prove it scientifically and people should try and also try to prove it. And teach me too! It would be fantastic.

Ryan wrote: I couldn't agree more. However, I'd take it one step further... and say that there is no physical, there is no body... it's all virtual.

I with you on that. I think what we may be experiencing is the just movement of information. We are processing it and displaying it on the screens of our consciousness. It would we very interesting to find out at the end of it that we never went anywhere, never did anything physically and nothing ever really moved. That would be mind blowing.

As far as "reality" goes, I am really hard pressed to distinguish between my lucid dream world which is definitely a fabrication, and the waking life world which of course we know can be argued either way. I have to look very closely to see the difference. Based on my lucid dreams, I could obviously be tricked. If my dream world simulations were just a little better, there would be no way to tell. The main difference between the two is stability and that could be a function of how many participants there are. I think it's a bit naive on our part to think our senses are so sophisticated that our reality couldn't be virtual without us noticing it.

If humans survive long enough to perfect virtual reality simulations, this will be a common topic of discussion. People will really have to reevaluate that question of "what is real". If you could experience the physical world reality so exactly that you couldn't tell the difference, what would be the difference? You could argue: But of course there is a difference, one is real and one is not. Yes that's true, but how would it matter if you couldn't tell the difference? We don't have to imagine what this would be like because we have experienced it in lucid dreams. So much of the time in my lucid dreams I'm thinking to myself: How can this be happening? This can't be happening, but it IS happening. All of this world is real, it's really solid, it has three dimensions, gravity, everything. Let me touch it for the hundreth time to make sure.

I've been realizing lately in my dreams that there is often a lot of sensory information that is just missing. There is enough information for me to establish what is going on, but details are often just left out. It's only when I'm lucid that I really pay attention to detail, and most people have experienced the closer you look, the harder it is to see the detail.

I think what you are saying is the debate is not about whether it occurs, but where it occurs.

That is correct, for me if i could astral project to the waking world I would find a non-believer and scare them or break something, I would do it in my own house first. Why bother with trying to get some reading on a lab meter when I would simply make the thing blow up or break the table it is sitting on. It would be so easy to do this if that's where we go and if not then I really dont see what the debate is about. Its feels as pointless as asking where do we think.

The reality of a lucid dream is only balanced by the fact that I dont need a sim to dream as I can do so easily in the void or in a other abstract states so I think its get more real in one respect as we get more skilled and paint a better sim but that's on one creation of the dream space.

As for waking reality its the meat body that provides the ultimate experience, that is the holder of our senses and our interface, take something away like sight or smell or hearing and I expect it will be a different experience so the body is the ultimate sim tool.

here is a way to tell if u are having an OBE or lucid dream

if u cannot move anything that is in the physical world if u have 360 degree vision if the people in the physical world u see do not notice u if u have a silver cord attached to u

if u answer all these with Yes it is very likely u had an OBE in the Real Time Zone and not a dream.

Nah, that doesn't cut it. The reason being that a lucid dream can emulate all of the above. There is no real time zone. If you affirm with absolute certainty that there is and you are eager to convince everyone then it should be easily demonstrable. Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes. If the text changes then you can be sure that you are just having a WILD (which is what I think OOBEs are).

Also, to whoever said it's all virtual, I'm sorry to break it to you but "virtual" only goes as far as the perception in your mind. What objectively exists is governed by physical laws that do not depend upon one being dead or alive, conscious or unconscious. If it is governed by physical laws, it is physical. Simple as! :mrgreen:

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes.

I dont think that reading txt proves anything as it will change unless I ask it to be stable but this most likely me creating the txt a second time not the first lot of txt remaining in a stable state. LOL - this just gets more and more twisted

Summerlander wrote: Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?

I am also skeptical that someone could do this at will, but If I could do it I would invite every skeptic I could think of and demonstrate the ability. Of course. If it is possible, someone who can do it should be able to demonstrate the ability. So let's suppose we set up an experiment. A known skeptic puts a number between 1 and 1,000,000,000 into a sealed envelope and then asks the person who has the ability to tell them what the number is. So let's suppose the person could actually do it and they come up with correct number, then they do it 3 more times.

Wonder how many people would still say, "Oh you know that could have been a coincidence." or "O.K. he or she did it but we don't understand how so there is still no proof" or "How do we know it isn't some kind of trick?" etc. The reason why, it would threaten *their belief system * because their minds are already made up.

We should keep trying to prove things that there is no proof or scientific evidence for yet. I believe that life exists outside of planet Earth, but there is currently no scientifc evidence to support my belief. So does that mean we stop looking? Hell no.

How can we make new discoveries if we only consider the body of scientific evidence that currently exists? Currently science is not able to measure to consciousness, but maybe someday it will. Remember that there was a time when things like temperature, atmospheric pressure, radiation and a lot more were not measurable by science. Did they not exist then? There were probably people saying that's not possible so let's not even try. We all know that rockets can't go to the moon, right. Be a skeptic, that's good. But be open, your brain won't fall out. Be open to the possibilities and keep the experiments going! Remember the words of Einstein. “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

I dont think that anyone with a scientific bias is saying it cant be proven just that as of now it isn't proven so that is open minded.

Peter wrote: I dont think that anyone with a scientific bias is saying it cant be proven just that as of now it isn't proven so that is open minded.

I hope you are right, but it doesn't look that way to me. I think it's pretty obvious that a discussion concerning a subject such as "astral travelling" has really nothing at all to do with science (at least currently). And as for the general topic of "paranormal activity", do you know of any sciences called "paranormal" anything? So then please enlighten me as to why we need to keep interjecting the same argument that astral projection or any other "paranormal activity" is not scientific, has not been proven, is all in our mind, etc. etc. ad infinitum. How many times is it necessary to hear that? Or is the real purpose of that an attempt to suppress the discussion and attempt to make people feel ignorant, stupid, uneducated, etc. so that they are intimidated? That looks more like the truth to me. Why do people who have no interest in making positive contributions to a discussion like to "hang-out" in topics where they have no real interest?

I would prefer to discuss the topic based on ideas, proven or unproven so that I have the chance to decide for myself without constantly being told what is "right". As for now I am just ignoring it, but hope others will be able to as well. The last thing most of us want, is to intimidate people into not expressing their opinions. What we will end up with is a monoculture of the same opinion and even it's it one that *some *people agree with it will do this forum a disservice.

I agree, but there are people who think," I know i am right, but there are still people who believe in god ." I posted a bit back, !Yes- But! Yes believe in my view, I do with a But "This is how I understand it now,but it can change as it has done often in my long life." Don't cling to an opinion or view. Remember from the earth being flat,came the sun went around the earth,which was then the centre of the universe, by now we know a bit more,and that is our present knowledge. There is plenty more to come.Please we should not try and force what we think onto others,but let it being known that this is only your view,and no dogma. OK Erich Yes-But :lol:

How about a break? On youtube click the arrow one the second window,and listening to the music, and watch the flying, have fun,and relax for a while

http://thephilharmonics.com/category/news/ :)

The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed. I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where. Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast.

I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.

For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on. What is required is for opposing views to be stated and not the viewers condemned directly or indirectly for their posts.

dreamer7 wrote: here is a way to tell if u are having an OBE or lucid dream

if u cannot move anything that is in the physical world if u have 360 degree vision if the people in the physical world u see do not notice u if u have a silver cord attached to u

if u answer all these with Yes it is very likely u had an OBE in the Real Time Zone and not a dream.

Actually, those are very limiting definitions.

None of those four items are exclusive to a "Projection". You COULD experience those... you could also never experience them. They're not the defining factors for what you arbitrarily label an experience.

Peter wrote: The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed. I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where. Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast.

I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.

Pretty much.

We're trying to discuss and define the undiscussable... and the undefinable. lol

For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on. What is required is for opposing views to be stated and not the viewers condemned directly or indirectly for their posts.

"Share experiences". Definitely. Especially direct experiences... for in the end, those are really the only ones that should matter to the person telling the experience.

Personal Experience trumps ANYTHING you'll read in a book or from someone else. :)

That's why I don't get upset or defensive if someone disagrees with me. I KNOW I base my knowledge on what I've directly experienced... nothing can say otherwise.

Peter wrote: The big issue is that we are discussing a state that is not normal in the sense of daily life but in terms that try to relate it the building blocks of what is considered normal and I dont think it can be done or really is needed.

It is difficult to explain or understand a lot of what is going on in some of these experiences such as HI, OBE and LD. But it also so fascinating to listen to other people's experiences and compare them to you own. I've learned a lot from doing that so I appreciate reading posts, especially yours. Please continue to post your experiences and ideas.

Peter wrote: I know what I do in my dream world, other world, astral planes and so the definition goes on and it some ways it really bores me as it defeats the purpose of the explorations that go on each night to seek proof of what or where. Over time I see less dreams posted and less responses to dreams and a lot of effort into "I am right and you are wrong" on topics that could be interesting but go down the drain very fast. I dont relate the two worlds, I do agree that there are crossovers and I put my efforts into getting more skilled at entries, skills and overcoming barriers in the dream world and in a lot of way see the debate as always getting to the point of being ego driven and not even interesting.

Agreed. It's such an incredible world that we are experiencing, it takes so much away from the discussion to have to get into a debate about proving this or that, just because you post an idea. I would love to focus more on just talking about our experiencing and less technical analysis and debate about whose right and wrong. I would encourage everyone who is reading this to as they say "disagree without being disagreeable". Please avoid getting sucked in to these kinds of confrontational argumentative discussions by just ignoring them and not responding. The poster will get the message eventually.

Peter wrote: For me its agree to disagree and share experiences and move on, I am starting to have a lesser presence in some threads after an abusive message from a poster because my views differ from theirs and in cases like that I wonder at the point of posting or taking part in forums. I also understand that it is the way we are and there are some nice minds and open people here so decided to stay on. What is required is for opposing views to be stated and not the viewers condemned directly or indirectly for their posts.

Completely agree and well said. I think we should all make every effort to keep this a discussion forum and not a debate forum. Not that we aren't allowed to disagree, but when we do, just make your point and move on and try to it constructively and without making it personal.

Summerlander wrote: Nah, that doesn't cut it. The reason being that a lucid dream can emulate all of the above. There is no real time zone. If you affirm with absolute certainty that there is and you are eager to convince everyone then it should be easily demonstrable. Why don't you go on the James Randi show and win a million dollars by proving that consciousness can exit the physical body?

If you really want to prove it to yourself, you could try to read the same text twice in an OOBE. If the OOBE is real and not an illusion, you should be able to read the same text twice or as many times as it takes. If the text changes then you can be sure that you are just having a WILD (which is what I think OOBEs are).

Also, to whoever said it's all virtual, I'm sorry to break it to you but "virtual" only goes as far as the perception in your mind. What objectively exists is governed by physical laws that do not depend upon one being dead or alive, conscious or unconscious. If it is governed by physical laws, it is physical. Simple as! :mrgreen:

are you able to have lucid dreams at will? NO. its the same with astral projection/obes. except these are even harder than lucid dreams. and yes, with OBEs u can look at text and it will always be the same. if the text changes you are in a lucid dream or astral projection. James Randi Astral Projected, he thinks it was a lucid dream but No he is wrong. AP and OBEs are different. AP can look like the real world but things will appear different or be in different places than usual, OBEs are in the Real Time Zone.

plus, with OBEs in the RTZ u can pull out a friend and go exploring the world together and u will both remember every second. or u can get into an OBE at the same time next to each other and u will see each other plus u also see other OBEers

All that you said above... prove it! :mrgreen:

I know that OBEs are not lucid dreams thou it is possible to have an OBE and be lucid dreaming at the same time.

I'll share one of my experiences which is like your test. This happened to me MANY years ago now. One night I had an OBE (I was working on having them at the time) and as usual was floating upwards from my bed. From up by my ceiling I noticed something had been placed on the top of my wardrobe, this got my interest as I'd put nothing there myself. So I floated over to have a close look.

It was a voucher for a certain shop and for a certain amount (I cant remember the exact details now. I think it was a $20 one). When I got back in my body I got up to have a real look excited as I knew this may be the 100% confirmation I'd always wanted to have about my the OBES Id started recently having. (at this point of my OBE experiences I was still usualy getting stuck in my bedroom if the door was shut as I wasnt getting throu the walls.. iimited by my mind).

Sure enough on the top of my wardrobe in the very spot I'd seen it, there was the voucher and it was EXACTLY the same as I'd read.. for same shop and for the same amount. My boyfriend got angry at me as he thought I must of watched him put it there and read it. I didnt actually even know he had got it, let alone gone and hidden something before this experience.

I only found out AFTER I had this experience that in fact it is highly unusual for someone to be able to read and understand something physically written while OBE. shrugs.. all I can say is it did happen to me and I correctly read the thing. (maybe its the preconceived notions of things which stop people from often achieving this??? I dont know).

Could I have done this if I was told something was there and for me to read it? I dont know. I had no preconcieved notions to upset my views as no one had said anything.. so no guesses of what someone may of written or whatever. Maybe that helped me to correctly read it? ..............

My observation is that there is also different closenesses we can get to physical plane reality when we are OBE. Sometimes we seem to be closer to this physical reality then at other times. I think the closer one is at the time.. the more one can actually interact to the physical reality eg from having another see you astral with their physical eyes (I once saw a photo someone had took of two others this person know who could astral project.. he got them to pose and they showed up on his photo), to being able to move physical objects while in an OBE state (ive done that once too..moved a chair..physical others experienced it move, not on purpose thou..that chair had just been in the very spot I'd been trying to project too rather then being in its normal place..so hence had been in my way). The closer to the physical world I are when Im OBE, the denser that world feels to me..i dont know if its my mind causing it to seem different of due to the fact I are closer at such times eg pushing hand throu wall then hard but can be done.

taniaaust1 wrote: I know that OBEs are not lucid dreams thou it is possible to have an OBE and be lucid dreaming at the same time.

Likewise, I know that OBEs and Lucid Dreams are relatively the same thing. :)

Perception and experience?

I know they're the same because I've experienced a dream, changed into a lucid dream, which then changed into an OBE/Astral Projection... all within the same experience, with no break in consciousness and not waking up between them.

It took me a little while after that experience (and I've had many others like it since then), in which I had to throw out everything I thought I knew about projections and then put together my own concepts via my own direct experiences.

My experiences have proven to me that they're all the same experience (dreams, lucid dreams, astral projections, obes, etc..) ... BUT, what differentiates them is the varying levels of conscious awareness during the experience.

I'll share one of my experiences which is like your test. This happened to me MANY years ago now. One night I had an OBE (I was working on having them at the time) and as usual was floating upwards from my bed. From up by my ceiling I noticed something had been placed on the top of my wardrobe, this got my interest as I'd put nothing there myself. So I floated over to have a close look.

...

Could I have done this if I was told something was there and for me to read it? I dont know. I had no preconcieved notions to upset my views as no one had said anything.. so no guesses of what someone may of written or whatever. Maybe that helped me to correctly read it? ..............

My observation is that there is also different closenesses we can get to physical plane reality when we are OBE. Sometimes we seem to be closer to this physical reality then at other times. I think the closer one is at the time.. the more one can actually interact to the physical reality eg from having another see you astral with their physical eyes (I once saw a photo someone had took of two others this person know who could astral project.. he got them to pose and they showed up on his photo), to being able to move physical objects while in an OBE state (ive done that once too..moved a chair..physical others experienced it move, not on purpose thou..that chair had just been in the very spot I'd been trying to project too rather then being in its normal place..so hence had been in my way). The closer to the physical world I are when Im OBE, the denser that world feels to me..i dont know if its my mind causing it to seem different of due to the fact I are closer at such times eg pushing hand throu wall then hard but can be done.

My interpretation of this event is that your boyfriend was thinking about this particular item so much that you subconsciously picked up on it... hence, when you projected, you created it as such.

We're all "consciousness"... so we're all one... we're all intrinsically linked, as such, it makes sense that data from one individual consciousness would be available to another in such a way.

Anyway, there are also loads of other possibilities for the "how" and "why" this occurred. Just chalk it up as a great experience for now... and keep trying for such experiments in the future.

Remember, if this physical reality was as cut and dried as science says it is... things like the placebo effect wouldn't have to be worried about when doing studies. :)
Just some food for thought.

My interpretation of this event is that your boyfriend was thinking about this particular item so much that you subconsciously picked up on it... hence, when you projected, you created it as such.

lol u got me there. I had been just about to ask you well how did I have the experience then. :) ..and that is also a logical explaination for it.

I thou have another question.. if they are the same.. how did I once move a physical chair which was seen by the physical people in the other room? (making them jump).

ah I know.. you will say telekinesis!! lol.. gee u are making me think.

okay...how do people then take photos of people who are experienced in OBE posing astrally in their astral bodies for the camera? (Ive seen a photo from someone who took one .. not online but someone from a group I used to go to took the photo).

know they're the same because I've experienced a dream, changed into a lucid dream, which then changed into an OBE/Astral Projection... all within the same experience, with no break in consciousness and not waking up between them.

I personally wouldnt attempt that as too likely to screw things up and confuse oneself by what is what. I wouldnt trust my judgement under such a situation. A dream.. I personally believe takes place in what is known as the "mental body" of ourselves (we have different auric layers). I wouldnt try to go from mental level to astral level as the mental level is all about imagination anyway and hence anything you percieve from that point is very very likely to just be imagination.. a dream. You may of dreamed you had changed and gone to astral OBE from that state. Ive often had ones which seemed to cross over..but Ive always viewed those as LDs due to that. It is quite possible to lucid dream of being OBE.

My experiences have proven to me that they're all the same experience (dreams, lucid dreams, astral projections, obes, etc..) ... BUT, what differentiates them is the varying levels of conscious awareness during the experience.

Consciousness doesnt necessarily change between a lucid dream and a OBE. I can have some of the the ones which you would of called OBES which actually dont have much conscious awareness to them. I havent personally found you can distinguish things things apart by how conscious one is during one of them. One can have a very very vivid LD with full waking consciousness in it (I often have had full waking consciousness in my LDs) but on the other hand have one considered to be an OBE...but be walking about, dazed, half asleep still and not thinking well at all. Its actually common for people esp new ones to it, to experience an OBE without their consciousness being there well or not having good control.

Do u believe we are spirits? If you do believe that what of the spirits (those deceased humans or other kinds which have lost physical bodies). Are they only dreaming??? If they are only dreaming and not OBE.. how can they consciously show themselves to us so we can take photos? (I have taken some photos of these by asking them to pose for the camera and they do just that.. are they dreaming too?? How then do they get on my photos when asked). Looking forward to hearing if you can think up another explaination which makes sense.