Are Astral Projections and "Spirit Entities" Real?

Started May 20, 2014, 12:59 AM • 62 posts

HAGARTon May 20, 2014, 12:59 AM

I've heard others claim that they exist too many times and have never gotten a straight up answer to explain it.

I've heard seemingly logical people speak of some dream characters as being "spirits" or "demons" that are somehow a real entity that exists beyond your mind. I've also heard that some lucid dreams are in fact, "Astral Projections", and are somehow more 'real' and they exist even after you stop experiencing it.

These same people claim to know the difference, but have yet to explain it. Now's your chance to convince this skeptic!

Otherwise, I will just continue believing that it all begins and ends in our own minds.

Karinon May 20, 2014, 04:34 PM

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

According to today's mainstream science, the brain generates consciousness (though they don't have proof for that, it's just an assumption of science). So according to mainstream science, astral projections, or life after death, or remote viewing, and so on, are impossible, because such things do not fit with the current scientific paradigm.

On the other hand, there are many anecdotical stories about people having experiences that contradict the above: near death experiences where the patient recalls everything that happened in the ER even though they were brain-dead at the time, astral projections where people claim to see things happening in the real world that they later were able to verify really happened, telepathic experiences, psychic experiences, channeling entities, etc...

However, the above experiences do not constitute scientific evidence, because even though often there were witnesses, these experiences cannot be reproduced on demand and there is not really any way to either confirm or disprove them. After all, the one who had the experience (and the witnesses) could just have been hallucinating, having a fit of collective hysteria, or simply having an overactive imagination. Or they could even be lying, trying to sell something, or attract attention.

My opinion is that we all have to make up our own mind and it's our personal responsibility to chose what we want to believe. That's why I am trying to explore states of consciousness so I can 'see for myself', as opposed to have to base my judgment solely on someone else's experiences and stories (even though I sure am interested to hear them).

For a long time, as a scientist, I have blindly believed what mainstream science was saying, forgetting that there still is a lot that science does not know and cannot even conceive of. There is a lot science knows about the physical world, but maybe the physical world isn't all there is, but is just one 'layer' of a bigger reality. Maybe this bigger reality is not accessible through our five senses or through our scientific instruments, but that does not mean it isn't there. Maybe our consciousness isn't generated in the brain, but rather, the brain focuses the consciousness into the physical world so that we can experience it through the five senses. And maybe if I can free a portion of my consciousness from the shackles of the brain, I might be able to become more aware of those worlds beyond the physical world, and then bring back some data about these experiences into the brain when I wake up.

"Otherwise, I will just continue believing that it all begins and ends in our own minds." I actually also believe this, even though I prefer to use 'consciousness' instead of 'mind'. I believe it all begins and ends in our consciousness, including the physical world. I believe the physical world is a type of collective dream we are all having. In this dream, it seems as if I have finite body separate of the rest of the world, just like it appears I have a body in my nighttime dreams. In the physical reality dream, I am not conscious of anything outside physical reality, and I can't remember anything about the time before I was born, just like in my normal nighttime dreams I am not aware that I am dreaming and do not remember anything about my 'real waking life'.

That's why I think lucid dreaming is so fascinating, because I believe lucid dreams can hold clues about how physical reality works. What if one could become 'lucid' in physical reality? What if we could become fully aware of who we really are as multidimensional consciousness and become able to have more 'control' about the way our real life unfolds? To quote Bashar, we could start to 'live our dream instead of dreaming to be alive'.

Karin

HAGARTon May 20, 2014, 07:32 PM

I'm actually an open-minded skeptic. (oxymoron)

I wouldn't have brought this up if there wasn't a glimmer of truth to it all. I can't dismiss the possibility without a shadow of doubt.

It is of course all anecdotal evidence, but I would really like to hear someone's story and share a lucid dream, and an astral projection and compare the two.

It is certainly possible that our consciousness doesn't have to sit inside our head, behind our eyes, and can wander off at times during stress or near death or even some drug use, and of course lucid dreams. I'm even open to the idea that we only see a narrow bandwidth of electromagnetic waves we call light, but if you go 'an octave up', you may see a whole new dimension!

Proof is in the pudding however, and we need to experience it for ourselves. But it's also like saying, "If you don't know than I won't tell you!" :lol:

I'm not here to prove that my opinion is right, but actually want to be proven wrong!

Karinon May 20, 2014, 09:09 PM

I think 'open-minded skepticism' is not an oxymoron, but rather it's a healthy state to be in, especially when venturing out into the unknown. That's very different from close-minded skepticism, which in my opinion often is a form of fundamentalism.

Yes, it would be great to hear stories here from people having both LDs and OBEs! I haven't had any OBEs yet.

There are books on OBEs where the authors share their experiences about OBEs and how they tried to verify their validity. For example Bob Monroe in 'Journeys Out Of The Body'. Some of his experiences are in other planes of reality and sound to me just like lucid dreaming, while some other experiences are in our world and he could verify some of them.

Then there are books on lucid dreaming where the authors share LDs that sound like OBEs, and they see stuff going on that they can later verify. I just read one of those stories in the book 'Lucid Dream' by Robert Waggoner (which I have only partly read).

taniaaust1on May 29, 2014, 01:11 AM

Open minded sceptics are always good :) . It gives more hope of finding out things and of changing what are just "beliefs". I dont think closed mindnesses is good but then neither is believing everything and not analysing things!!

I really liked Karins post.

Maybe our consciousness isn't generated in the brain, but rather, the brain focuses the consciousness into the physical world so that we can experience it through the five senses. And maybe if I can free a portion of my consciousness from the shackles of the brain, I might be able to become more aware of those worlds beyond the physical world, and then bring back some data about these experiences into the brain when I wake up.

It makes me think of a beetle born and raised in a container. The beatle may think it knows all there is about the world after all its gone to the end and back and that was all there was to it!!

The beetle goes "show me there is more to the world".... but the issue is the beatle is stuck in that container and cant be gotten out (for whatever reason) and other things cant be gotten in. Hopefully the beetle will keep exploring and notice one day that the container has now cracked which could allow contact with new parts of the world. ...............

It would be great if an experienced OBE person would help prove to HAGART that this exists eg pose for HaGARTS camera who something, this can be done, a fellow occultic student once showed me the photos which were taken of 2 people ..friends of this person.. astral projected posing for a camera.

Most thou cant be bothered by people not believing or not knowing and feel no need to go and prove anything (who cares, people will believe what they will) but as HAGARTS query is a genuine one, it is possible that someone could come forth. (thou I reallly doubt there would be those who are currently doing OBE here at the LD website as I personally find the two states do not mix well! They conflict). HAGART your query would be best to be asked to those at an OBE website with very experienced OBE people.. if you get to know some of those, maybe one of them would be happy enough to help answer (demostate in some way) to answer your query.

..........

I myself thou arent currently doing OBE anymore as Ive put my focus into LD as I like to study the mind and the best way to study it is throu the subconciousness!! so currently are not having OBEs and havent done so for a while cause of my LD focus

I find OBE and LD states are different, both the same kind of relaxation is needed but with LD one needs to let the mind go or the mind needs to do that naturally to start dreaming, with during OBE one doesnt want that occurring as otherwise it becomes a dream). As it is Im still working on it trying to become a habit to engrain into my mind the feeling of and keep hitting that "sweet spot" with LD from which one knows one can get a LD from. Im not about to mess that up by trying to work from the other brain state, till Ive completely mastered LD stuff. sighs.. Im not doing much with LD of late either, my life has been far too hectic! ..........

If you want to experience OBE.. stop working with LD. You probably would have to completely break with it (as your mind would be in a habit of entering into a LD state when you get deeply relaxed and you need to make sure that wont be occuring) for a while first before then starting working on AP techniques.

The best AP technique Ive found is an energy raising one in which teaches travelling clairvoyance first and then moves on to AP, in which is in Denning and Phillips book "Astral Projection, The Out of Body Experience). It has a whole AP program which can be worked with, step by step. Anyone interested in OBE.. I really suggest to read this book (if you cant get hold of the actual book from your library or buy it (as I did), someone did find this free to read online after I mentioned it).

The energy technique in this book helps to raise consciousness by boosting chakras (which I know many here dont believe in either).. and hence makes OBE easier to do... expecially when its set out in a program chapter by chapter.

If you do not have friends experienced in this kind of stuff to prove it exists, the best thing then is learning to to do it yourself.

How many people here truely believed in LD before they did it and found out for themselves? (thou OBE should be far easier to prove). What is irronic is even if one does manage to interact with the physical world with it, one still may not be believed. Take what happened to me with a previous boyfriend for example. He'd brought me a gift voucher and hid this on my bedroom wardrobe top. I had an OBE and found myself floating by the ceiling of my bedroom.. when I spotted something on top of my wardrobe which shouldnt have been there. Of cause I drifted across to take a look at what it was. I saw then it was a voucher and read who it was too and for how much.

My boyfriend when I told him, he got very mad at me and accused me of watching him hide it and then peeking. (His mind couldnt accept how I told him I'd found out about it!). I hadnt even known he'd brought me a gift voucher (for xmas/birthday..I forget which now) or even that he'd hide something on my wardrobe top of all places (he didnt even live with me.. so what a stupid place to put something) before I saw that during an OBE.

erichsaon May 29, 2014, 06:11 PM

Karin

Personally I know that in my physical world I am mostly not conscious, but in my dream world when I am lucid I am conscious,( or say alive.) I have by now separated my life in to my physical world, and my dream world. I enjoy both my lives. my dream world is mostly clear dreams with lot of action, good dreams no nightmares, but doing what I could do in my physical world, plus all the things I can only do in my dream world like body flying.

Lucid Dreaming, A concise Guide to Awakening in Your Dreams and in Your Life, by Stephen LA Berge helped me to come to my present understanding. I am more than willing to learn and hope I am never to ridged in insisting that my point of view is right. In a lucid dream I was flying and ask: I want to meet my higher self. I shot up and stopped high in the sky at a mesh wire fence, at the other side of the fence a face looked at me. The face was myself. :lol:

erichsaon May 29, 2014, 09:24 PM

I am reading for the first time that you can see things which are in a place you have not looked or shall I say, seen before while OBE. Taniaaust1 that is great. because I thought it is not possible to-do that. :)

Karinon May 30, 2014, 12:14 AM

erichsa wrote: I am reading for the first time that you can see things which are in a place you have not looked or shall I say, seen before while OBE. Taniaaust1 that is great. because I thought it is not possible to-do that. :)

I too am grateful to Taniaaust1 for sharing this. I had this idea in mind, in case one day I achieve OBEs: I would shuffle a deck of cards and place it side up on top of something (without looking), then next time I would have an OBE, I would fly up that piece of furniture to look what card is on top, and then verify it after I wake up...

If one looks at physical reality like a dream our higher consciousness is having, then there is no reason that my higher consciousness should not be able to know everything about everything within that dream, since my consciousness is the one having the dream within itself. Then things like remote viewing, precognition, OBEs, telepathy, and so on and so forth, make perfect sense... Unless my higher consciousness decide to set up limitations within the dream, just for the fun of it (to see if its own self dream character can be smart enough to 'crack' the limitations)?

HAGARTon May 30, 2014, 03:45 AM

I read everything and am letting it sink in with an open mind....

But I had to reply to this:

Karin wrote: I would shuffle a deck of cards and place it side up on top of something (without looking), then next time I would have an OBE, I would fly up that piece of furniture to look what card is on top, and then verify it after I wake up...

Great minds think alike! I actually did this and shared my experiment on this forum. I thought I was original and came up with it first, but even Summerlander had tried it long before me. It's an easy, simple experiment for anyone prone to "out of body dreams". I call it, (OBE... Out of BED Experience) ;). I wasn't successful, and concluded that I was only in a WILD. I had another two this morning. I have a very realistic feeling of a body and can touch things, feel the cold snow, and wet water, but it was clearly a dream since it is almost June here and getting hot in real life!

Here's a link to that experiment right here in this forum in the Science Section: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13776 Just because I couldn't do it in my 2-3 attempts doesn't mean I disproved it either. I should setup a deck of cards and try again! Reading it again, I was overly scientific, but that's because I didn't want any loop-holes and wanted to be precise. But I couldn't help but lace it with some of my conspiracy theories, I can't help it. ;)

MAKERon May 30, 2014, 09:42 AM

#10

I haven't read through everyone's comments, but I thought I'd share an experience of mine since it pertains:

When I was younger, probably about 6 or 7, I was visiting my great grandparents out in Louisiana. One night I glimpsed something that still sticks to me to this day, and I am still fairly afraid of this room (great grandpa still has the same house). I was unable to sleep, and while tossing and turning, I turned toward the open part of the room (the bed was against the wall.) I witnessed 4 or 5 "spirits" walking in a counter clockwise circle.

They were all transparent, glowing soft blue, wearing robes with hoods (think of a christian type monk), and were all carrying very big open books. I was one petrified little boy to say the least. I immediately squeezed my eyes shut and didn't move or make a sound for the rest of the night. I didn't dare run toward the door (as I would have to run through this little mob), and I was afraid to scream because I didn't want them to know I was awake.

After that night, I couldn't sleep in that room. Even walking down the hallway at night to the bathroom across from the room was something I couldn't do alone.

As memory fails us through years of space from experiences, I can't say without a doubt that I wasn't dreaming these "spirits" in a restless sleep or something similar, so take this with a grain of salt as it is the experience I had when I was a wee lil' lad :) . BUT, this experience, whether real, a dream, or imagined, has led me to have a fascination with and a slight tendency to be more than open-minded toward "spirits." I can say with certainty that the experience was as real as real gets for the little version of me, but is still no conclusive evidence for the existence of.

Karinon May 30, 2014, 03:43 PM

#11

HAGART wrote: Great minds think alike! I actually did this and shared my experiment on this forum. I thought I was original and came up with it first, but even Summerlander had tried it long before me. It's an easy, simple experiment for anyone prone to "out of body dreams". I call it, (OBE... Out of BED Experience) ;). I wasn't successful, and concluded that I was only in a WILD. I had another two this morning. I have a very realistic feeling of a body and can touch things, feel the cold snow, and wet water, but it was clearly a dream since it is almost June here and getting hot in real life!

Cool! I'll check that thread, thanks for sharing your experiences! I joined a few weeks ago and I am very behind in exploring the large amount of info available on this forum. :oops:

I too love a sprinkle of conspiracy theories, LOL! :D Makes everything more interesting, but I avoid over-indulging or being sucked into it (been there, done that).

taniaaust1on Jun 3, 2014, 01:49 PM

#12

erichsa wrote: I am reading for the first time that you can see things which are in a place you have not looked or shall I say, seen before while OBE. Taniaaust1 that is great. because I thought it is not possible to-do that. :)

I guess if I didnt have that experience and one other experience I had with that stuff too (I moved something when trying to project to a place which 2 others who were physicallly in a room experienced), probably seeing anothers photos of a couple of astral projectors while out of body may not have been enough to **fully **convince me and I'd be doubting like HAGART does, still wondering if OBEs were just LDs.

All it takes is one or two big experience with it and one cant doubt any more that there can be some real physical interaction going on. .....

edit I just remembered another experience I had with this. I was astrally at my dying aunts bedside and knew exactly where she died as I was astrally there. She'd been sick for 8mths? a year?? before this and there was nothing physically at all that had warned me that that was about to happen. I hadnt spoken to her or her children for ages.

All these things werent planned, they just happened. I was doing astral projection at the time and they just happened when I got out. Ive never tried anything planned to prove it to myself as I didnt need to with experiences like that, it like proved itself to me.

taniaaust1on Jun 3, 2014, 02:06 PM

#13

Karin wrote: If one looks at physical reality like a dream our higher consciousness is having, then there is no reason that my higher consciousness should not be able to know everything about everything within that dream, since my consciousness is the one having the dream within itself. Then things like remote viewing, precognition, OBEs, telepathy, and so on and so forth, make perfect sense... Unless my higher consciousness decide to set up limitations within the dream, just for the fun of it (to see if its own self dream character can be smart enough to 'crack' the limitations)?

umm.. I guess I could say that maybe my OBEs could of been psychic experiences instead but experiences I experienced from an OBE point of view. Lucid dreaming psychic experiences involving telepathy for one? and remote viewing for others? and oh what's it called when one makes something move with energy? for another. I doubt it.

Kind of easier to believe thou that they were OBEs rather then Im skilled in all those other areas. Ive tried very hard to move objects with my mind when not out of body and I dont have any ounce of skill in that one at all! (I tried so hard on several occassions during meditation states that it made my head hurt). I cant even move a match stick (during an OBE thou I some how moved a chair).

Anyway.. all these things are food for thought and I guess such experiences could be things like remote viewing (but then that isnt all that different to OBE.. the persons energy goes to a location and they pick up info on it. A remote viewing person is experiencing being in two locations at once).

taniaaust1on Jun 3, 2014, 02:19 PM

#14

HAGART wrote: I wasn't successful, and concluded that I was only in a WILD. I had another two this morning. I have a very realistic feeling of a body and can touch things, feel the cold snow, and wet water, but it was clearly a dream since it is almost June here and getting hot in real life!

Nods, LDs can feel soo very real like too. Wet feels wet, cold feels cold etc and the DCs often in mine act like real people do (but are snobs!). My lucid dreams feel extremely real like too.

I dont think there is any issue with being scientific, if you are trying to prove to yourself if something could exist or not, you need to be and need to leave no loopholes.

I havent seen your thread on your experiment so will check it out.

If the looking at a card doesnt work, I wouldnt try doing that again as it shows you havent experienced if you got it wrong. You cant force it to happen from a LD state.

Try the experiement only again if there is something feeling different about your LD then normal which makes you actually question that "maybe this one is a OBE?" (so probably a good idea to keep a card on top of the wardrobe face up just in case you do experience something like that.. something with an inner knowin that it probably isnt a LD.. I get a feel with it.. I cant describe it.. its a knowing feel. Is like a precog dream, it feels different).

patcheson Aug 16, 2014, 09:09 AM

#15

Karin wrote: Here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

Karin

Karin, I couldn't agree more. It seems rather obvious that we shouldn't assume that mainstream science has all of the answers, or that the answers they come up with are necessarily 100% correct. They absolutely discount any evidence to the contrary...and there is thousands of years of anecdotal evidence. At the very least, it should be acknowledged that there's something going on that can't yet be explained, and it should warrant further investigation before stating as fact that there's no such thing.
I've had some pretty incredible experiences myself, so I keep an open mind - I don't discount any theories. Of course, because of what I've experienced as well as the experiences of people close to me, I lean toward the "yes, astral projection and spirit entities are real" side...and I hope it's true, bc the world would be so much more interesting if it were.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image

HAGARTon Aug 16, 2014, 07:16 PM

#16

Reading your other post about sleep paralysis, and "The Hooded Man", and even experiencing it while awake, I just had an idea that might explain it, and it relates to this thread. It could be a Tulpa, a thoughtform or entity, that we conjure. Many children report having vivid imaginary friends, so I think there's a lot of truth to it. Maybe it isn't objectively real, but to the subjective individual it can be. And we all know the mind is a powerful thing still yet to be fully understood.

These entities can become very real, but you have to truly believe in it. We dream about what we believe and then use the dream as proof of what we already believe so it creates a cycle that reinforces the idea so much that it truly does become subjectively real. You may have unwittingly created a menacing thoughtform with strong belief.

There's a mysterious cult known as Beleibers that worship an entity known as Justin Beiber. It too is menacing and pees in janitor buckets, throws eggs, and has petty fights with Orlando Bloom. There's no way that guy's for real! If people stopped beleibing, the entity would disappear from the airwaves and no longer be a part of our collective consciousness. (That's what I did with my shadow figure I use to see during my false awakenings... I just ignored it and it went away). But there's always a positive side, and perhaps The Beiber should be kept after all. The entity also creates great material for late night talk show monologues. ;)

Maybe your 'spirit entity' is either good or bad depending on how you perceive it, and there's a way to keep your, Tulpa, thoughtform, shadow figure, hallucination, or whatever it is, and turn it into a positive, constructive one.

patcheson Aug 17, 2014, 07:29 AM

#17

First of all, I agree 100% about the most frightening beiber entity. I don't even think we need the material for late night, there are plenty of other entities that can fill that role. Some things just shouldn't be messed with. I've also considered the possibility that this Hooded Man was some sort of something that I'd accidentally created somehow...but a couple things that puzzle me about this:

why do so many ppl around the world see the exact same figure? In detail...not just a shadowy figure, but a 7-ft blacker than black hooded figure with no facial features, scary eyes, and even down to the detail of giving off a sense of boiling rage? I just don't see how so many ppl from different backgrounds and cultures could be imagining the same thing.
the scariest part about the encounter was the fact that the next morning, (as I was trying not to think about my horrible hallucinAtion from the night before), my 3yr old daughter saw him as well? She woke up, went to my bedroom, and started screaming like i'd never heard her scream before (or since), and After finally calming down enough to speak, said there wAs a "bad man" in my bedroom. I asked her to describe him, she said he wAs "really tall, is all black, has long black hair in front of his face (like the hood)," and she "couldn't see his face, but he had creeeeeepy eyes...".
That. Freaked. Me out.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image

illumyon Aug 17, 2014, 07:29 PM

#18

I think what's absolutely key here, is that we first must define what is, "Real".

"Real" can be different things, to different people.

Do you think life here on Earth, is, ..."Real", just because when you miss with your swinging hammer, and hit your hand, it hurts?

Allow me to tell you that, pain is identical, even when you are somewhere other than here, only more so.

"More so", in that, any one who successfully travels, either astrally, or lucidly, will tell you that it is far more, "Real" than being aware here on Earth.

How can that be, ...but it is.

So, being somewhere other than consciously here on Earth, is "more" real than being on Earth, what does that tell us? That Earth is real, or that they are all real?

I once read somewhere, that, reality, your own personal reality, is where your consciousness is one hundred percent focused at that given moment.

That statement is very heavy to grasp, but if you take your time, and tear that statement apart, it works.

For instance, why do you awaken from a nightmare, sit straight up, and thank God that, that was only a dream?

Because while you were there, in your nightmare, your complete conscious was one hundred percent focused at that (location/plane/level) etc., and when you "woke up", did you really, "wake up", or did you (re-focus/shift) your conscience back to this plane.

While you were there, in your nightmare, that was real. That was your reality at that point in time. That's why it had such immense impact on you. Do you think anything, "fake" is going to effect you to that degree? And then, you may argue in your defense, that in your dream, you saw three headed pigs, or what ever scenario that would not be of "this world". While in your dream, you weren't hear, in this world. Physically you were, but that physical part dies, and decays eventually. You visited that dream world, with you conscience, which never dies, or decays, because in its fundamental form, is energy. Again, each, (world/level/plane), would have its own, "rule set", ie things that are normal on that plane of existence. And just because we don't have three headed pigs on earth, or, this plane, doesn't mean that three headed pigs aren't the norm, wherever you visited.

Look, we all die, animals die, plants die. That, in and of itself, proves that here, Earth, is not the Be All, the End All, the Cure All. If it was, nothing would die, we would all stay here for eternity".

So that means that we have to start looking beyond the scope of "man made" science, and thinking.

Science is a good thing, don't get me wrong, and it strives to make logic out of things on this (level/plane), but science is limiting, at best. Science can only accept as reality, things that science can prove. And any logical thinking entity, is fully aware that, things such as space, the human mind, astral travel, etc., are to vast, and ineffable for science to lasso, just yet. And just because science can't prove it, ...it's fake, it's not real, it's folklore, it's chemicals in a dying brain.

Well, thank goodness for the new wave of scientific thinking. It started with Einstein, and has been growing, albeit slowly, ever since. More and more scientists, as well as physicists, are finally realizing how narrow minded, and dogmatic the science of old, really is.

Immense leaders on the forefront of this new revolution include Dr Eben Alexander, and Dr Thomas Campbell, both of which have enormous resources available on YouTube.

Dr Eben Alexander for instance, a neurosurgeon and staunch believer that when you died, that was it, had a near death experience, now fights to the death to say that we are all wrong, that there is more than here, and now. This is a scientifically, and medically trained professional, who after only one near death experience, is re-writing his entire philosophy of existence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZqTSBvwRQo

So in closing, "never say never".

Just because science cannot prove something, does not mean that it doesn't exist.

What we discuss here on this Forum, astral travel, OBE's etc., is light-years ahead of "today's" science. Not that sometime in the not so distant future, science will finally be able to test this type of travel, but for right now, they'll just have to deny it. Far too many human beings, having far too many unexplainable experiences, for it to all be fake.

Stay strong, continue to explore things you cant yet prove, and use, as Dr Thomas Campbell bases all of his experimental travel on, ..."open minded skepticism".

HAGARTon Aug 17, 2014, 09:15 PM

#19

I question what is "Real" too. The only thing physics can truly do, is know the mathematical relationships between 'stuff'. (Orbits, electromagnetic waves and all that is really just saying.... when this happens, this will also happen and by this much). Then it gets crazy at the quantum level when things are only probable until measured and perceived by a consciousness, but I don't know too much about it. :o Everything else is interpreted by our brains, and we create our whole 3D environment full of color and sound from simple waves and jiggling things called 'atoms'. We also go further, and layer on top of that, our emotions, memories and imaginations. That means that our personal 'reality' is unique and is pretty much a dream... an illusion. I think Buddhist monks figured that out centuries ago. ;) And even time is perhaps an illusion because as soon as you try to measure the present, it's gone! (I could talk about that sort of stuff all day, and there's too much to discuss in a single post).

So are dreams real? Yes. They really did happen. If I were to look back on all the things I've done and experienced in my life time, I mustn't distinguish between dream, and waking reality, for both are equally 'real' as part of my entire human experience as a whole. Dreams are a real part of my life. And in the moment of the dream, for all intense and purposes, that is your whole reality for the moment. That's how I prolong lucid dreams when I feel them slipping away. I touch things, look around, move my body so that I stay in the dream and my entire focus is drawn back to that version of reality. Our reality really is, whatever we are focused on at any given moment.

With that said, here is what I mean by the main question. Are there places, like an Astral Plane, that exist beyond our own subjective experience, and can be verified by more than one person. If you describe the place to someone, can they answer, "Yea, I've been there too! I etched my name on a tree and you can go and find it there." Or you might meet a dream character who is not just in your mind, but also visits other people as if it has a life of it's own. (Just like defining 'reality' defining 'life' is another whole new can of worms to open!) It can be complicated when my definition of 'reality' and 'life' are not exactly the same as what the average person would think. (In fact, I still don't have a solid definition of those yet!)

I just posed more questions than I answered. ;)

HAGARTon Aug 17, 2014, 10:25 PM

#20

patches wrote:

why do so many ppl around the world see the exact same figure? In detail...not just a shadowy figure, but a 7-ft blacker than black hooded figure with no facial features, scary eyes, and even down to the detail of giving off a sense of boiling rage? I just don't see how so many ppl from different backgrounds and cultures could be imagining the same thing.

I belieb... er I mean, I believe, that this is due to the Collective Unconscious coined by Carl Jung. I looked it up on Wikipedia just to make sure, and I was surprised to actually find "The Shadow" mentioned as one of the archetypes! That means it's very primitive in all our psyche and we are born with it before any life experience, therefore, it will be very similar for all humans regardless of cultural upbringing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29

I never did much research on it so I found these interesting. This is just food for thought and being Wikipedia, it's more of an appetizer.

patches wrote: 2) the scariest part about the encounter was the fact that the next morning, (as I was trying not to think about my horrible hallucinAtion from the night before), my 3yr old daughter saw him as well? She woke up, went to my bedroom, and started screaming like i'd never heard her scream before (or since), and After finally calming down enough to speak, said there wAs a "bad man" in my bedroom. I asked her to describe him, she said he wAs "really tall, is all black, has long black hair in front of his face (like the hood)," and she "couldn't see his face, but he had creeeeeepy eyes...".

So your daughter saw it in a dream, not in 'real' physical life? I've heard accounts of dream sharing before. Taniaust1, (forget where her post is), but reported sharing a nightmare with her daughter. It was the other way around and she was in her daughter's dream. Perhaps your daughter dream shared with you. Many reports of precognition, and telekinesis (like just knowing someone is in trouble), all tend to have one thing in common: A strong emotional bond between the two people. A mother/daughter bond is very strong, and a sleep paralysis nightmare is a very strong emotion.

My two explanations actually reinforce my belief that it all begins and ends in our minds. But it's still an interesting world and truth is stranger than fiction.

Robert Waggoner who has published some books on lucid dreaming, and meditates, is a credible, down to Earth person and I saw an interview on YouTube in which he reported having a precognitive/mind-sharing moment. (It was over a year ago, so my memory may not be 100% accurate). When meditating he gained an unshakable knowledge that one of his old friends was in financial trouble, and after calling him up, it turned out that his friend's mother had died and he couldn't cover the funeral expenses. (Strong emotion + relationship).

Michael Persinger is a cognitive neuroscience researcher who is not afraid to tackle and explain some paranormal activity. He did studies on remote viewing and even speculates that we can transmit our thoughts through the Earth's magnetosphere. Since our brains produce waves, they can be transmitted. The Earth's magnetic field is about 40Hz. Guess what else is 40Hz? Our brain waves during The Phase State. The Phase state is a term that encompasses all Lucid Dreams, Astral Projections, OOBE, and even some False Awakenings, and those Sleep Paralysis Nightmares. Essentially it's a period of 'body asleep/mind awake'.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and it doesn't matter. You can do your own Google search of course. It's just fun to talk about this stuff. :D

Karinon Aug 17, 2014, 10:54 PM

#21

HAGART wrote: ... Are there places, like an Astral Plane, that exist beyond our own subjective experience, and can be verified by more than one person. If you describe the place to someone, can they answer, "Yea, I've been there too! I etched my name on a tree and you can go and find it there." Or you might meet a dream character who is not just in your mind, but also visits other people as if it has a life of it's own. ...

Fascinating thread! You're right, defining 'real' is key.

I heard somewhere 'All realities are illusions, and all illusions are real', or something like that...

I think one issue comes from taking physical reality as the standard for what is real. Maybe there are other 'real places' out there that don't follow the same rules as physical reality at all. Maybe there are realities where if I etch my name in a tree and tell you to go find it there, you will go and you will find it there, but only because I told you so. Maybe anyone else who does not know I etched that name in that tree would never see it.

Some talk about 'collective fields of consciousness', that can be experienced in a similar way by many people of similar beliefs. That makes some sense to me, and it's one of my goals to try to get out of my 'personal field of consciousness' during lucid dreams, and try to visit collective fields that I am interested in. Maybe a shared dream between two people would be one step closer to that, a mini-collective creation between two people.

Concerning creatures in the astral having a life of their own, maybe those 'exist' in the collective unconscious of humanity, if such a thing exists? Maybe there are some cultural archetypes, that one might encounter depending on their culture, time in history, etc... Some talk about 'resonance', meaning that I will not encounter something that at a consciousness level I don't resonate with? Again, the laws 'out there' might not be the same at all as physical laws, and maybe something 'out there' cannot hurt me unless I believe it can. That's what I chose to believe until proven otherwise, though I admit that my personal experience in those matters is very limited.

Speaking about personal experience, I can only mention two very basic ones: first one, in my second LD, I found myself in that place I called a void, very odd and disorienting, with no reference points, no ups and downs, just darkness with pale flashing lights here and there, and then I saw that exact description of this place in Frederick Aardema's book and he called it 'the void' too. That's not something I had ever heard of before. Second experience: in my third LD, I had a very strong desire and a very strong intent to meet another consciousness. I did instantly end up in a very odd place that looked just like TV static noise. I could not go beyond. I did share that story here and there, and recently I found another person who experienced the exact same thing when she intended to meet someone else in her LD, even though in her case she was able to push through this 'TV static plane' and make it to her target. Interestingly, she posted her story BEFORE I had my experience, on a private site which I had no access to, and she used the same words I did, also describing it as 'TV static noise'. Maybe that's a type of barrier one encounters when trying to exit the personal field? Those two examples don't prove anything, and I am sure there are tons of more interesting stories out there, but as a beginner, they do intrigue me and certainly motivate me to keep exploring.

HAGARTon Aug 18, 2014, 01:06 AM

#22

Karin wrote: I think one issue comes from taking physical reality as the standard for what is real.

We don't know anything exists unless we compare it to something. We compare waking life to dreams, and make a distinction. But it's not black and white; It's only shades of gray. (That sounds dirty.... damn you best seller!) :oops: Even Einstein himself would tell you that physics is skewed relative to the observer.

I've heard of 'The Void' before and had my own experience. I was in a lucid dream, and saw my reflection in a mirror and walked right in, breaking the glass, and was in a black void space, no color, no sense of 'up or down'. There was no relativity. When awake, we see in 3D and have a 'line of horizon'. We have a sense of up and down. But pure consciousness doesn't need that, only our bodies, relative to physical reality so we could hunt and survive and procreate and evolve.

In a lucid dream, we don't need a body, so why do I usually have one? It's because I am so use to it, and letting go is very hard! It's proprioception: the perception of body in RELATION to other parts. (Again, it's just relativity).

But consciousness is not physical. The brain is, but not the mind. There's no physical barriers in the mind, apart from the ones we create ourselves, so what's stopping us?

illumyon Aug 18, 2014, 01:37 AM

#23

HAGART wrote: I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and it doesn't matter. You can do your own Google search of course. It's just fun to talk about this stuff. :D

Wow, you could not have nailed that statement any better!

Especially this topic, no room what so ever for "heated debates", as all of this deals with ones, "personal experience".

Nobody can say with undisputed truth what is, and what isn't, but the topic is absolutely filled with lush possibility.

As to the question posed about whether or not two people (can/have) ever visited the same virtual plane, as in etching your name on a tree, or something to that fashion, for someone else to go see, Dr Thomas Campbell, (http://www.my-big-toe.com/), claims to have definitive experimental proof of just that.

Apparently in the infancy stages of Dr Campbell's research and studies into Astral Travel, in a totally observed, and monitored environment, Dr Campbell, and another assistant, Dennis Mennerich, were both placed in two separate, sound proof rooms. Each of them had a microphone, to record what they were saying, and a (mediator/overseer) of the experiment, Robert Monroe, founder of The Monroe Institute, (http://www.monroeinstitute.org/), presided over the entire experiment.

Both men were then instructed to begin their Astral attempts. And again, apparently, the two guys met up in the Astral, as the recordings, when played back after the experiment had finished, show a definite, "synchronization" of their conversations to one another.

An excerpt from Dr Campbells book detailing this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBPiZVgsC&pg=PA84&dq=%22trip+%28experience%29+in+the+nonphysical+together%22&hl=en&ei=750HTtqMKsvEswbvp9TbDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22trip%20%28experience%29%20in%20the%20nonphysical%20together%22&f=false

This kind of experimentation is absolutely fascinating.

patcheson Aug 18, 2014, 03:10 PM

#24

There's a series of interviews with an expert on sleep paralysis from penn state medical school...it's a ten part series, but here, in part 5, he addresses the theory that jungian archetypes (among other things) explains the "frightening presence" during sleep paralysis...for those who are interested (especially ppl who experience sleep paralysis), I highly recommend watching the whole series of interviews. In any case, I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion... http://youtu.be/huchL8YPp8Y

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Peteron Aug 18, 2014, 03:29 PM

#25

Interesting - cheers

HAGARTon Aug 18, 2014, 03:50 PM

#26

I watched part-5, and that guy would be a great addition to this discussion. :D

He says that it can't be due to Carl Jung's theory of archetypes because all the accounts are very specific (about 30 different ones), and they follow rules in a specific order. He says it's due to cultural programming, but I disagree. I believe (I use that word on purpose, because this is all belief), that it's nature, not nurture, and that our brains are like a machine, and self will is an illusion, and we are just 'moist robots' as Scott Adams would call us. (Creator of Dilbert). We are born with basic blue prints, a foundation of knowledge, that we build on afterward during the nurturing process. (Living life). So perhaps all those experiences are pre-programmed in all of us, and are triggered under the right conditions regardless of cultural programming. The right condition being an 'altered state of consciousness'.

So what is 'altered'? It goes back to relativity and we must compare it to whatever a 'normal' state of consciousness is, and yet it fluctuates without us realizing it, all day long, every day. ;)

Even he admits, he doesn't know, and I don't know either, but that's my attempt at a rebuttal, and yet it was mostly an "agree-ttal". ;) :lol:

I keep using the phrase, "I try to find the normal in the paranormal" Or explain the natural in the supernatural. I feel like Agent Mulder. ;) If we could explain these paranormal and supernatural phenomenons, then they would simply be normal and natural and part of our everyday lexicon and part of our version of truth and reality. Much like back in the day, it was unheard of to think the earth was round, when all conventional ideas knew, JUST KNEW, that is was indeed flat!

I think there's another paradigm shift on it's way. 8-)

Summerlanderon Aug 19, 2014, 12:40 AM

#27

Monroe and Campbell's experiment was never replicated successfully and they have failed to recreate it themselves let alone prove what they alleged to have happened and justify why we should take their biased interpretation at face value. Dualism is dead and we have evidence continuously weighing in favour of physicalism..

Spirits? Bah! I don't believe in any of that shit! :-D

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Jacksonon Aug 19, 2014, 03:22 AM

#28

Make this topic into a poll...

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illumyon Aug 19, 2014, 11:30 PM

#29

Summerlander wrote: Spirits? Bah! I don't believe in any of that shit! :-D

How apt then, that someone of your disheartening demeanor be lurking in a Lucid Dreaming based forum.

Summerlanderon Aug 20, 2014, 02:08 AM

#30

What does lucid dreaming have to do with spirits? I enjoy lucid dreaming and I believe it is all in my a head, i.e. a product of my brain. Why is that so disheartening to you?

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DesertExploreron Feb 5, 2015, 10:01 PM

#31

I hope so..

taniaaust1on Feb 8, 2015, 09:47 AM

#32

HAGART wrote: I keep using the phrase, "I try to find the normal in the paranormal" Or explain the natural in the supernatural. I feel like Agent Mulder. ;) If we could explain these paranormal and supernatural phenomenons, then they would simply be normal and natural and part of our everyday lexicon and part of our version of truth and reality.

The paranormal becomes normal if someone experiences it often enough and in that case they dont need explaination eg You accept the trees you see, the people around you, the dirt outside as its all normal, it doesnt need explaination of why its there.

Much like back in the day, it was unheard of to think the earth was round, when all conventional ideas knew, JUST KNEW, that is was indeed flat!

I wonder what their proof of the earth being flat was? Does anyone know what convinced them this? It would be interesting what so called fact mislead the belief.

Summerlanderon Feb 8, 2015, 02:13 PM

#33

The notion that the Earth is flat did not come from fact. It was an assumption because most people could not imagine a round world and gravity wasn't even heard of. Many a wise man, however, noticed the Earth's shadow on the moon and thought out of the box, "What if..." But such visualisation tended to be ridiculed. Just like the Copernican view was a dangerous idea compared to Ptolemy's geocentricity. Why? Because the latter was congenial with the Biblical assumption that we are at the centre of the universe as we are God's special creation and He had us in mind when He made the universe. In religion, this doesn't need to be evidenced. It is an UNQUESTIONABLE "truth."

Science, however, increasingly shows us a universe where humans are insignificant. I would also say that everything requires an explanation - hence why science devises theories to be tested. How did the dust get there? How and when did our planet form? Science investigates and has great potential to provide answers. It can tell us that 25 million years of galactic dust has accumulated at the bottom of our oceans. It tells us the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. And that our universe is just under 15 billion.

As David Hume once pointed out, to the scientist miracles don't exist. If a man cut his arm off and grew a new one in a matter of minutes, many would be tempted to call such event a miracle, something paranormal, especially the religious. A scientist, however, would deem such occurrence unusual but normal, and would thus be curious as to what chemical reactions made that possible once trickery were ruled out. He would invite "miracle" man to his lab for further testing.

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HAGARTon Feb 8, 2015, 02:31 PM

#34

I want to invite Taniaaust1 to my lab and pick her brain.

There are 3 possibilities for why she experiences paranormal activity:

She's lying.
She's telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real.
She's prone to hallucinate. (She sincerely thinks it's real, but it isn't).

I will rule out #1 right away. She's very open, honest and sincere. She has no reason to make it all up. As for #2, I can only arrive at that if I rule out #3 for it is all just anecdotal evidence that she provides. So now I'm left with #3. I've heard stories of how she saw a reptile creature, saw fairies, was OBE and was caught on camera, and even just recently in another post, she captured a spirit orb on film. I haven't seen the proof however, so it's just anecdotal. Her word against all others.

Keep in mind, that when I say, 'hallucinate', I don't mean she is crazy. I hallucinate at least once every 24 hours... I call them dreams. Only I can see them, so although they are very real to me, they can't be seen by anyone else. I've heard of people seeing auras around people and I don't think they are lying either. It perhaps is a synethesia of some sort. Again, a hallucination because nobody else can measure it or detect it with an instrument. It's not physical. It's an hallucination.

Let's say that she is telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real. Since I am not born with psychic abilities and am unable to view the spirit realm interacting with this one, for me, it is not now, and never will be a part of my reality. There is so much in the expansive oceans that I will never see, and only hear stories about. If I never see a mermaid or a megalodon, even if they are indeed real, I will live my whole life on land and die without one ever being a part of my reality, so I have to assume they don't exist until proven otherwise.

However giant squids use to be folklore until one washed up on land and was proven. So I will remain open-minded, but skeptical until my beliefs are proven wrong.

Taniaaust1 wrote: You accept the trees you see, the people around you, the dirt outside as its all normal, it doesnt need explaination of why its there.

Wrong. I question EVERYTHING! 8-)

DesertExploreron Feb 11, 2015, 05:47 PM

#35

Astral Projections and Spirit Entities for the win!! Like if you agree :P

jasmine2on Feb 13, 2015, 04:21 AM

#36

In our Western society, many people tend to say that something is "real" only if it can be observed in outer world, consensus reality by two or more people, and scientifically measured in some way.

However, every single "outer world" sensation-perception we have in our whole lives is filtered through our subjective consciousness, which categorizes the experience and associates it with some form of meaning and relative value. We ultimately experience the whole spectrum of inner/outer reality subjectively.

Perhaps rather than asking if subjective experiences such as -- non-lucid and lucid dreams, hallucinations, sleep paralysis, astral projection or OBEs, visionary or numinous mystical experiences, precognition and other psychic phenomena, or spontaneous creative inspiration -- are "real", we should instead ask, "How valid and valuable are these subjective perceptions as part of an individuals whole life experience?

Some quantum physicists propose that consciousness is not separate from energy/matter, and that all that we perceive may be part of a larger, universal field of multiple dimensions, or multiple universes.

I recommend this thought provoking collection of essays. -

"Engaging The Imaginal Realm: Doorway To Collective Wisdom" by Carol Frenier and Lois Sekerak Hogan - collectivewisdominitiative.com

Philosopher8659on Feb 14, 2015, 07:19 AM

#37

From my experience, lucid dreaming is like a school. A lot of psychological testing takes place. Some modifications of psychology can take place. It is on the order of telepathy. I went beyond it. Was guided. I eventually learned that much of it is linguistically based, an analogic. I went on to discover Basic Analog Mathematics. The human mind is responsible for human behavior. Currently the human race is proto-linguistic.

A primitive race is one who think telepathic communication is reality.

taniaaust1on Feb 14, 2015, 09:24 AM

#38

HAGART wrote: I want to invite Taniaaust1 to my lab and pick her brain.

There are 3 possibilities for why she experiences paranormal activity:

She's lying.
She's telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real.
She's prone to hallucinate. (She sincerely thinks it's real, but it isn't).

Im not lying.. so that leaves hallucination as you said or truth. Ive though had quite a few experiences with others too, so that means Ive had quite a bit of "group" halluncination around me too so that makes things even more interesting. Sceptics do believe in group halluncinations.

My hallucinations thou must have been very very good thou, they've actually helped me at times :) and also proved right.

I would be a good study subject if I knew how to control a lot of what Ive experienced, unfortunately most of it has been random. (have i even showed you via the pm the photo of the possessed child I got asked to help?).

saw fairies

I felt faires when a psychic lightworker took me and some others out to meet faires at a fairy circle. Ive also saw what I think as fairy lights (I think they were faires but they were like little lights) playing with my cat. Ive havent seen like faires with wings flying about.

I can see very basic aura level at will but I cant prove nothing by that.

Since I am not born with psychic abilities and am unable to view the spirit realm interacting with this one, for me, it is not now, and never will be a part of my reality.

Thou I think I have always had a touch of psychic ability, some of the stuff Ive learnt. I got taught how to see the first auric layer, Ive got taught how to feel energy and chakras. Some of this stuff with a good teacher is teachable so anyone could learn it if they had a good teacher. If you want to learn how to feel energy.. I studied under a Yogi Master called Master Choa Kok Sui. He's now deceased but his school is worldwide and people teach his stuff still.

Ive travelled states to learn stuff and studied with some of the worlds best teachers in some things. Most people can be taught at least some how to experience some of the things not usually seen. I dedicated years of my life learning things (thou I must admit I had had many experiences before this but I wanted to understand the things I experienced too)..

Lots of people have same experiences and what makes it stranger is that they can often have their experiences together. Ive seen things, demostrated to me which others just wouldnt believe.

Taniaaust1 wrote: You accept the trees you see, the people around you, the dirt outside as its all normal, it doesnt need explaination of why its there.

Wrong. I question EVERYTHING! 8-)[/quote]

:) . My Yogi teacher would of liked you. He was always trying to get us to question everything. I thou dont really care why the trees are there or why a sunflower is yellow.

Summerlanderon Feb 14, 2015, 05:50 PM

#39

Even if the reason why sunflowers are yellow hold the key to unravelling the deepest mysteries of the universe or determining the origins of reality itself?

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DesertExploreron Feb 15, 2015, 11:21 PM

#40

Summerlander wrote: Even if the reason why sunflowers are yellow hold the key to unravelling the deepest mysteries of the universe or determining the origins of reality itself?

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He, he, hey! I see what you did there.. :D

Snaggleon Feb 19, 2015, 01:49 PM

#41

There are 3 possibilities for why she experiences paranormal activity:

She's lying.
She's telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real.
She's prone to hallucinate. (She sincerely thinks it's real, but it isn't).

This is a rather defective hypothesis tree that needs to be extended.

She has experienced mirages, both visual and auditory exist.
She has misperceived what she saw or been helped to misperceive – as a hunter we help our prey to misperceive us all the time so that we can kill them. We can see cold readers doing the same thing and preachers with “words of knowledge”, than there's Derren Brown creating misperception by suggestion.
She's been hypnotized and subject to a fraud campaign. She has that phot of herself OBE she did not take it and the person who did is a prime suspect for the fraud campaign.
A demon has been haunting her and causing her to experience these things (yeah this is a Christian view and I'm not a Christian...still I'm not sure demons are not real, though I hope they're not ;) )
She's been a test subject in government mind experiments. This is a bit unlikely as she's an Australian; but if an American we would certainly have to keep it on the list just from what we know the CIA and our government have done that's part of the historical record.

... I call them dreams. Only I can see them, so although they are very real to me, they can't be seen by anyone else. I've heard of people seeing auras around people and I don't think they are lying either. It perhaps is a synethesia of some sort. Again, a hallucination because nobody else can measure it or detect it with an instrument. It's not physical. It's an hallucination.

You're ignorant of the technologies that have been invented Haggart. They can both detect your dreams with instruments and partially recreate what you're seeing -it will be fun to see in the next 20-30 years whether of not they perfect it and we'll be able to watch other peoples dreams.

Also the aura may be able to be seen right now with instruments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhBYqkos-Xhk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6NIUV24vcQh

I haven't seen the proof however, so it's just anecdotal. Her word against all others...Let's say that she is telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real. Since I am not born with psychic abilities and am unable to view the spirit realm interacting with this one, for me, it is not now, and never will be a part of my reality. There is so much in the expansive oceans that I will never see, and only hear stories about. If I never see a mermaid or a megalodon, even if they are indeed real, I will live my whole life on land and die without one ever being a part of my reality, so I have to assume they don't exist until proven otherwise.

However giant squids use to be folklore until one washed up on land and was proven. So I will remain open-minded, but skeptical until my beliefs are proven wrong.

Despite Summerland's insistence on absolute proof, proof of anything is abnormal. It's an ideal rather than anything of actual value. What you have before you is anecdotal evidence and like all evidence it needs to be evaluated and in so far as possible tested. It's not her word against all others it's those who dismiss her claims without any valid reason because it disagrees with their own values – they're not rational and so their own claims get dismissed as non-evidence, as their claims are grounded in prejudice not experience or reason.

If there is a spirit realm interacting with this one it's part of everyone's life whether they acknowledge it or not. The proper attitude is not to dismiss evidence; but just to suspend judgement. We need to suspend judgement on anecdotal evidence because it usually can't be tested – the world is always full of mysteries some of which are true however far fetched they are.

Many of her claims are far fetched and the photo of an astral body contradicts normal experience – people die all the time under observation and no one sees and films their spirits leaving – this is the only claim of hers which really is her word against all others. She obviously did not take her own photo and this is a case where she may be being hoaxed by someone else.

Summerlanderon Feb 20, 2015, 02:33 AM

#42

Snaggle's logic is no different to Taleb's "Black Swan theory." First of all, this isn't about absolute proofs but it certainly is about evidence which she did not provide when we requested it. So, I stand by this firmly: anything that can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. (Something which Snaggle does not have the brain to understand otherwise he would also know that kirlean photography does not evidence auras. Auras, in the spiritual sense, by the way, do not exist.)

Snaggle, it seems, conveniently mistakes anecdotage for verificationism. And confuses scepticism with denial. Then he uses this illogic to accuse his doubting Thomases of having no faith, opting for heretical disbelief instead.

Snaggle, Snaggle... :mrgreen:

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taniaaust1on Feb 21, 2015, 03:52 AM

#43

Snaggle wrote:

There are 3 possibilities for why she experiences paranormal activity:

She's lying.
She's telling the truth and everything she claims is indeed real.
She's prone to hallucinate. (She sincerely thinks it's real, but it isn't).

This is a rather defective hypothesis tree that needs to be extended.

She has experienced mirages, both visual and auditory exist.
She has misperceived what she saw or been helped to misperceive – as a hunter we help our prey to misperceive us all the time so that we can kill them. We can see cold readers doing the same thing and preachers with “words of knowledge”, than there's Derren Brown creating misperception by suggestion.
She's been hypnotized and subject to a fraud campaign. She has that phot of herself OBE she did not take it and the person who did is a prime suspect for the fraud campaign.
A demon has been haunting her and causing her to experience these things (yeah this is a Christian view and I'm not a Christian...still I'm not sure demons are not real, though I hope they're not ;) )
She's been a test subject in government mind experiments. This is a bit unlikely as she's an Australian; but if an American we would certainly have to keep it on the list just from what we know the CIA and our government have done that's part of the historical record.

Also another possibility would be: 9. Im on drugs or alcohol thou I guess that would have to come under hallicinations (Note thou I dont drink or not hallucinations or illegal drugs).

Wouldnt rule the test subject in mind experiements even in Australia. One of my teachers had issues with the CIA who gatecrashed one could say one of his lectures in Sydney Australia (He was teaching what he called bilocation but one can call this "remote viewing". I used to fly interstate to attend his classes at times but wasnt at that one. This happened after the American remote viewing program had supposively been shut down.. so that story they gave the general public was bullshit).

She's been hypnotized and subject to a fraud campaign. She has that phot of herself OBE she did not take it and the person who did is a prime suspect for the fraud campaign.

You have the OBE photo thing wrong (you can check my previous post whereever you saw it and see you got wrong impression or took my post in wrong way). The OBE photo wasnt of me but of astral projectors (or projector.. Ive forgotten which. Im sure it was 2 thinking back to it) who had posed for someone I met at one of the stranger groups Im involved in (or was involved in, Im currently disabled and housebound so arent currently having contact with any of the groups in my past). But anyone, a couple experienced in astral projection posed to another (not me), who then took their photos. They had set it up between themselves going out of body so the other could take the photo and I was shown the photo.

This photo was among others group members had taken and we were sharing with each other at the group. I took photos of those photos (as people were understandably reluctant to hand out the real photos for others to take away and get professionally copied). People someones bring strange things to groups so once one person had pulled out strange photos they'd taken.. a couple of others did too. Oh boy.. I can see how strange this all must sound.

I truely believe these people. Most stuck to higher principles and ideals and were quite on their spiritual paths.

It was a LARGE group attendance and several people had strange photos including strange ones group members took when they went on an Egypt tour of the Great Pyramid. Our group got very special permission to hold a meditation in the Kings Chamber (or maybe it was queens, it was one of those, I think it was the Kings Chamber). I wasnt present on that tour cause as a single parent on a pension, I couldnt afford that.

Summerlanderon Feb 21, 2015, 11:06 AM

#44

To get someone's attention you need evidence, tania. I don't think you, like Snaggle, understand scepticism.

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deschainXIXon Feb 21, 2015, 04:04 PM

#45

If "anecdotal evidence" was a real thing, I could tell any wild story I like and you would have to believe me. And we have to have better standards of reality than that, ones based around tangible evidence, or else anything goes. Like the superstition that Elvis Presely is still alive. Or that President Busche orchestrated 9/11.

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Summerlanderon Feb 22, 2015, 02:05 AM

#46

Exactamundo. 8-)

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taniaaust1on Feb 25, 2015, 01:10 PM

#47

Summerlander wrote: To get someone's attention you need evidence, tania. I don't think you, like Snaggle, understand scepticism.

Issue with strong sceptics is that even if evidence is presented they wouldnt believe eg one could present a photo and they'd think it was altered! Many sceptics wouldnt believe something unless they saw it with their own two eyes. (hence I dont even bother ever trying to show strong sceptics photos)

Philosopher8659on Feb 25, 2015, 01:23 PM

#48

taniaaust1 wrote:

Summerlander wrote:To get someone's attention you need evidence, tania. I don't think you, like Snaggle, understand scepticism.

It is not skepticism to only believe to the limits of the evidence presented. It is rational conclusion. What is conveyed in any experience is exactly that experience, not the mythologies, or the chance conclusions of the observer. For example, I am alive today because of what to some would appear to be divine intervention, but to me, and what I know about language, and the relative speeds of processing language, I say it is what is called telepathy. However, personal experiences like that can only be empty words to someone who has never experienced it, and it is really not important that they do. What is always important is doing our own work, and understanding that what we know, is exactly what we know. No more, no less. And what someone else can know of what we know is limited to exactly what we can show them. No more, no less. And what can be conveyed is dependent upon your ability to bring someone along with you by a rational process. I often only argue so that I can spot how it is I am failing.

And language is a social thing. When you argue with a person, you have to be actively aware that the language you are using is basically only an indexing tool of the mind. You have to observe also, the other persons ability with it. In Platonic terms, to see the similar idea in the many examples, is a reference to the indexing functionality of a mind. What we are taught, even in colleges, about language, what it is, what it is for, how it works, cannot be called an education. So, if communicating is really important to one, then they have to resign themselves to a long and personal education, along which, they know they are not really communicating much.

Language is the only tool of a mind. We use it to effect our behavior and the behaviors of our environment. So, as was written, anyone who understands this, remove first the beam from our own eye.

As logic, such as common grammar, is an indexing system, there are hazards involved in how we apply it. A conclusion we reach when young will determined how we associate, file, information. If we have to make a radical change in associations, then what happens is often called a cathartic experience, an extreme one, is would often be called a mental breakdown. It is actually a physical process to rewire a brain. There are certain natural processes required to do it, so, often you are fighting with a person trying to avoid such an event. The event itself, if one is not aware of what it means, can also adversely effect how one even views themselves. Our subjective integration with reality is dependent upon how we have established that basic wiring. It is not something that one can talk away, however, many parasites calling themselves psychiatrists, and psychologist do make a living out of pretending to help.

How people are educated really has a great deal to do with the mental health of any civilization. What happens when you remove certain experiences through the introduction of technologies, effects their basic ability to function. The ability to change a mind is then related to the material, the experiences, indexed. This is why, teach them when they are young, and the less experiences one has had in life, the easier it is to change a persons mind.

This is also why, when looking for certain concepts, one is more apt to find them from an age when men had a lot to do to survive. They had to develop efficient methods of thinking.

taniaaust1on Feb 26, 2015, 03:45 PM

#49

Philosopher8659 wrote: . However, personal experiences like that can only be empty words to someone who has never experienced it, and it is really not important that they do. What is always important is doing our own work, and understanding that what we know, is exactly what we know. No more, no less. And what someone else can know of what we know is limited to exactly what we can show them. No more, no less.

So true

Summerlanderon Feb 27, 2015, 04:25 AM

#50

As Hagart pointed out, I tried the cards. Nothing significant. Also, the more you read books about neuroscience and Darwinian evolution, the more the notion of ghosts amd afterlife sounds absurd.

I don't believe. I've been open-minded long enough. I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Now I have pretty much closed the door on it. It's wish-wash. It's BS. :-D

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HAGARTon Feb 27, 2015, 08:55 AM

#51

I'm open minded about an astral plane, and dream sharing, but if it hasn't happened by now, I feel like an outcast. Am I not welcome or something?

I guess those on the astral plane are part of an elitist club, and don't want me there for some reason. I feel bad and let them know that. :(

What did I do to be so unwelcome? How do I join?

taniaaust1on Feb 27, 2015, 01:19 PM

#52

HAGART wrote: I'm open minded about an astral plane, and dream sharing, but if it hasn't happened by now, I feel like an outcast. Am I not welcome or something?

I guess those on the astral plane are part of an elitist club, and don't want me there for some reason. I feel bad and let them know that. :(

What did I do to be so unwelcome? How do I join?

I hope you do some day. Sometimes things happen when we least expect. Ive only dream shared once in the way me and other had dream at same time sharing it. It really doesnt appear very common or we'd have lots coming here saying it happened so you shouldnt feel like an outcaste at all over it.

HAGARTon Feb 27, 2015, 06:44 PM

#53

If you only dream shared once, then perhaps it was just probability. I happen to remember you saying it was with your daughter and she had a nightmare and forget where that was posted, but my memory is pretty good. I've heard others here report dream sharing with their siblings, and I can imagine twins would do it a lot. It doesn't surprise me that if you both are related with a similar way of thinking, eating the same foods, sharing the same life experiences during the day, that you will eventually have a very similar dream. That's my rational explanation for it.

As for the "Astral Plane", I truly need a proper definition that separates it from a lucid dream. I've been in lucid dreams with people who were just as lucid as me. They seemed to have a consciousness separate from my own. I've shared at least one of them on this forum, and at the time truly did think I was in a world with other conscious, lucid dreamers. I doubt it now, but I do question how a dream character can have such a life-like personality and seem to have a consciousness and self-awareness separate from my own. How is that possible?!

I even "Asked the Experts"* about it, but we all have our own opinion. I've been in lucid dreams that seemed so realistic I couldn't believe it, but I noticed that the same rules of lucid dreaming apply. When I write them out it sounds like any other lucid dream, just more vivid, which cannot be expressed in words, so reading it seems the same as any other lucid dream.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ask-the-experts-2-dream-characters.html

taniaaust1on Mar 8, 2015, 08:27 AM

#54

HAGART wrote: If you only dream shared once, then perhaps it was just probability. I happen to remember you saying it was with your daughter and she had a nightmare and forget where that was posted, but my memory is pretty good. I've heard others here report dream sharing with their siblings, and I can imagine twins would do it a lot. It doesn't surprise me that if you both are related with a similar way of thinking, eating the same foods, sharing the same life experiences during the day, that you will eventually have a very similar dream. That's my rational explanation for it.

The dream I had with my daughter (who I rarely discussed dreams with but only did this day because asking her what her nightmare was about due to her being awake middle of night from it so it wasn't like we regular discussed dreams trying to match things). We both experienced a location which appeared the same which never of us knew from anywhere. She was being beat up by 3 people (I cant remember if it was 2 or 3 now but think it was 3) in that unknown to us location and was being hit over the head and had called for my help.

I'd heard her and responded and experienced the same scene of her being beat up by the same 3 DCs (none of them we knew, from what we could tell we'd seen the same ones) and experience her being hit in the same way as she experienced.

Its very hard for me to think this wasn't a true dream share (just imagine the odds in real life of two different people experiencing that same situation in real life at exactly the same time.. we both woke from same dream at same time). It wasn't something like dreaming of sitting down to eat meals we often eat... that could easily just be a probable dream then and something if commonly discussed one could match.

As I said we very rarely discussed our dreams with one another, maybe once every 4-5 months we'd talk about a dream we had and just so happened to have the same unusual dream with everything in it unknown to both of us before it. The probability we experienced same dream with all the things in it except ourselves happening at same time, all completely unfamiliar to both of us is extremely low probability.

As for the "Astral Plane", I truly need a proper definition that separates it from a lucid dream. I've been in lucid dreams with people who were just as lucid as me. They seemed to have a consciousness separate from my own. I've shared at least one of them on this forum, and at the time truly did think I was in a world with other conscious, lucid dreamers. I doubt it now, but I do question how a dream character can have such a life-like personality and seem to have a consciousness and self-awareness separate from my own. How is that possible?!

That's the issue I have too.. how does one help other to understand the difference when both can feel real, when a person can LD they are astral etc etc. I just have to go by my inner feeling/intution since I proved to myself by experimenting that the astral plane is real. Something which at times guides me when awake too eg how do you know you are awake right now?? you just know don't you, of cause there is a very slight chance you could be wrong and in fact right now you could be lucid (better reality check to make sure :) ) .. well I find it like that, I often know.

Half the other time, I've left not sure and those times the only way for me to know what to be test it out with something I can prove later in real life (that's if it really matters

Don't forget your DCs are in fact you as they come from you, so don't be surprised if they have intelligence at times like you as after all **they are part of your own consciousness ** so know all you do and more Your subconsciousness may in fact by far more intelligent in many ways then your waking self is as it has more memory etc so no surprise the DCs can be intelligent.

When I was working on Jessie the Tulpa I made and experiencing him at times, it really blew me away how smart he was and how different he functioned then myself. When he did the English homework I was doing, he had a different style then I do. He'd also tell his own original jokes etc He used to surprise me a lot. He also made different music, just like can happen in dreams. Our subconsciousness is full of knowledge.

My DCs can appear very real. Maybe one day I can come up with an easier way to distinguish rather then having to do reality testing and compare with then after waking or just relying on intuition based on how it felt on the times when I knew I was astral and later able to prove it.

Maybe that shared dreaming experience I had with daughter was an astral experience??? but as it didn't feel astral I will call it a dream share. It felt like an ordinary dream. But who really knows..

taniaaust1on Mar 8, 2015, 08:40 AM

#55

HAGART wrote: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ask-the-experts-2-dream-characters.html

Thank's for that HAGART. I like the questions Rebecca suggested asking DCs ◦Are you self aware? ◦Where does your consciousness come from? ◦What is your experience while I'm awake? ◦Show me your experience of this dream!

HAGARTon Mar 8, 2015, 10:25 AM

#56

I like your insights as always and take them into account with a little grain of salt as always. We all have to. And the same goes for what I say.

I never did answer those questions that Rebecca brought up and I always think of new things and forget about the past. I will try and answer them now, off the cuff. Faster the better because over thinking dulls our true, inner responses. I'll just provide an immediate response to each. It's the best way.

◦Are you self aware? yes. ◦Where does your consciousness come from? The clockwork of the mind. ◦What is your experience while I'm awake? **Your're vanquished. ** ◦Show me your experience of this dream! It's just a mirror of self.

I didn't hesitate and those were the answers I got, without thinking. Which even when awake I feel are the best representation of what we truly believe and think deep down. Don't give your logical mind a chance to think and just respond.

There is no wrong or right answer, and even now, my logical mind wants to disagree with those.

taniaaust1on Mar 9, 2015, 12:15 PM

#57

I wonder if your DCs would answer those questions in the same way (the questions were for the DCs :) ). If they are anything like my subconscious projections they probably will each answer in different ways.

Dreamsweeton Sep 21, 2015, 10:59 PM

#58

I wouldn't call it a spirit entity... more like a demon.

Before I even knew how to speak, before I had any concept of the world around me, I could astral project. I was able to look into the past and the world outside me in the present. I saw my past life dying a sad, lonely death as a fat, middle-aged man drowning by a pier. I saw the children of the family upstairs form our apartment before I even met them, I saw the streets and vehicles around us and so many wonderful things.

I also encountered Twizzler, a smiling pair of floating red lips. It was the only name I had for him due to my limited vocabulary. I couldn't just call him lips, he was more than that. He'd chase me down and swallow me into an infinite tunnel of flesh and closing teeth, almost like sliding doors that clenched shut. Occasionally the tunnel would end and I'd land on an ash island in the middle of an ocean of lava, and on the opposite side of the island was another Twizzler standing there with limbs... arms, hands, feet and legs sprouting from him, still bright red and as thin as strings. On top of his upper lip would be a crown, and he'd simply swallow me all over again and repeat the same horrifying trip.

There was a point where I was unable to open my eyes, but I was awake and dreaming at the same time. If I can find Twizzler again in the future, I would love nothing more than to attack him and destroy him for picking on an innocent child, and any other entity that victimizes dreamers.

Summerlanderon Sep 22, 2015, 12:11 AM

#59

There is no such thing as astral projection. Thry are just dreams.

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Pareidoliaon Sep 26, 2015, 04:40 PM

#60

And what reliable source states this, Summerlander?

Summerlanderon Sep 27, 2015, 01:29 AM

#61

Nearly two centuries of neuroscience--where we have observed that all mental faculties are excisable via brain damage or malfunction; it is enough to render Descartes' dualism defunct. The soul concept doesn't even explain consciousness; it only aggravates the problem as we are then forced to ask: How is the soul conscious. Besides, Occam's razor: Our biology can work without such assumption. It's funny how hadron colliders have revealled the Higgs that bestows mass to all particles, and yet, this hypothetical ghost that is supposed to grossly control physical bodies (on a classical level of physics) is nowhere to be found. :-D

As Marcello Truzzi once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you claim flying pigs exist, the onus is on you to prove it. So far such creatures have never been observed so it makes no sense to believe in them. The astral projection affair is so blatantly a fantasy it's embarassing. :mrgreen:

Also, anyone who is a serious practitioner of meditation will know that the self is nothing but a mental fiction. Here is my thread on mostly anatta 'no-self':

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16533

So ... is astral projection and spirit entities real? Only in the minds of those who believe. :mrgreen:

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Pareidoliaon Sep 28, 2015, 11:17 PM

#62

Very well done and thank you, Summerlander. Now this ongoing disagreement and these pointless speculations can finally end. :lol:

~ You've reached the end. ~