Does the Soul Exist?

What is the average lucid dreamer's philosophy concerning the existence of the soul? Do you think you or any other human being has a soul? If so, what is its nature? Is it just as mortal as the body and mind? Do you think animals have souls? Or do you have your own viewpoint, your own unconventional opinion about what a "soul" is or how it functions?

Write about and discuss your opinion here. (Be willing to give and receive refutation or remark, so long as emotion is kept out of it entirely. Also, be open-minded and consider all possibilities.)

To my mind, a human is nothing more than an organic machine, albeit one of such mind-boggling complication and intricacy that it feigns bearing something greater within.

I think the soul can be disproved by considering animals. Most people would agree that animals have no souls. Even highly domesticated animals still resort to the primitive brutality and coldly calculating viciousness that kept them alive in the wild--ripping other animals apart, or abandoning their babies if it becomes unsustainable to keep them alive. Most people believe that humans have souls, but animals do not.

But how much different is an animal from a human? Consider a dog. Aside from all the superficial, anatomical differences, there isn't much distinction between a man and a dog. Both feel emotions. Both feel the need to eat, drink, sleep, socialize, reproduce. Both are (evidently) fully biological. The only important difference, I think, is that humans are more intelligent.

So if the soul is defined by intelligence, then am I to assume that mentally retarded people and people with brain damage do not have souls? Or what about babies and children? At what point does one gain one's soul? Does one definitively earn one’s soul at the age of 2? 3? What about animals whose psyches are not conventional in the sense that they have "intelligence" or employ reasoning or problem-solving (IE hive-minds)?

I think the most compelling ideas about the soul were brought up by science fiction novelist Philip K Dick in his famous book "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", in which he observes that the only thing separating a human being from something else (like a machine or an animal) is empathy. But ultimately humans are NOT prone to empathy, at least no more than a dog is.

If you put two humans adjacent to one another and subject them both to the most horrible and unbearable torture imaginable, then proceed to ask one, "Should I stop torturing you, or should I stop torturing him?" He is not going to look upon his fellow human and feel empathy and say, "Okay, stop torturing him, not me." He isn't even going to think. He is going to scream for it to stop--if you asked him, he'd probably KILL to make it stop. Humans are driven by self-interest. The only reason they form and behave in societies is because it keeps the individual self safe. Safety in numbers. Also, consider serial killers or criminals or anarchists (people who are willing to step outside of or have no regard for society). Serial killers are very important when considering the nature of the human mind. Previously, I said that animals have no souls because they have no problem with brutally and indiscriminately murdering fellow animals, sometimes even animals of their own species. But it seems that humans hold a similar primitive, subconscious violence, something left over from their time spent in the caves. Perhaps serial killers simply have no regard for social barriers and are simply more in touch with their true nature. Either way, empathy is irrelevant.

Thus ultimately, there is no distinction between animals and humans. EITHER both animals and humans have souls OR neither do and the soul doesn't exist.

And this truth ruins any ideas about the soul brought up by religion, seeing as many religions think that men are somehow greater than beasts.

Further, it makes no sense for both animals and humans to have souls. Because if all animals have souls, regardless of intelligence ... Do microorganisms have souls? Do viruses have souls? Does tissue itself have a soul? Do all the individual cells of your own body have little miniature souls? Does an undeveloped fetus have a soul? What about little sperm cells?

It just doesn’t make sense. All you're left with is that the soul does not exist.

I am sure the usual suspects will debase the idea of a soul or the fundamental aspects of the embodied characteristics of good or bad in the existence of a soul. I would first require anyone denying a soul should at least give a brief description of what they are calling a soul. To me a soul is a mirror image of the mental energy a person exhibits. I am still formulating a more complete view of where the soul exists but I feel strongly that it is attached / linked to the subconscious. I have asked a few people who learned lucid dreaming and control on their own without learning aids or reading books. All of these people have suggested that when lucid dreaming and exhibiting their most powerful traits their physical form is fluctuating or pure energy. I suspect that energy form is the unconscious embodiment of a soul.

It may also be worth reading this link under the science topic I posted earlier concerning life after death.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15419

Hats off to you, DeschainXIX! Quite a rich thread! I don't believe there is such a thing as a soul (spirit, ghost, mental energy in the dualist/vitalist sense). My view comes from what evidence supports: physicalism.

Consciousness is an epiphenomenon of a particular brand of physical complexity - so complex that we are still trying to figure out what nature evolutionarily stumbled upon over millions of years. The self is, therefore, nothing but a user illusion. There is no free will and no afterlife.

Such conclusions seem pretty evident to me over a hundred years of neuroscience. One can be conscious, unconscious, comatosed, and death is simply the point of no return at the end of the spectrum of non-experience. Everything about the mind, every mental faculty, is excisable via brain damage or malfunction. We are our brains and when these are destroyed we've had it. In evolution we've had simple mineral beginnings and today we like the egotistical feeling we experience. We like to delude ourselves with the fantasy that we are somehow immortal or that a holy father made the universe with us in mind. (Not cockroaches, beetles, and ants who are more numerous both in numbers and species.)

As I also pointed out before, the hadron collider finds the Higgs, and yet, no sign of a ghost that supposedly controls physical bodies in such a gross manner.

That's my piece. :-)

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@ deschainXIX

Nature is all about adapt and survive. one species cannot survive without another species. take mosquito for example. its there bcoz larger predator need them to survive like frog etc. u cannot compare animal to a human. there r both product of nature. but Animals dont kill a deer unless its hungry. but wen it comes to human, it kills not just for survive, it also for fun, greed etc etc..

@ for all the people who thinks humans are superior.

@deschainXIX again, lets elaborate ur theory

"If you put two humans adjacent to one another and subject them both to the most horrible and unbearable torture imaginable, then proceed to ask one, "Should I stop torturing you, or should I stop torturing him?" He is not going to look upon his fellow human and feel empathy and say, "Okay, stop torturing him, not me." He isn't even going to think. He is going to scream for it to stop--if you asked him, he'd probably KILL to make it stop. Humans are driven by self-interest. The only reason they form and behave in societies is because it keeps the individual self safe. Safety in numbers. "

lets just say the one human is u, and the next human is ur Mother or father or whoever important to u, what will be ur decision. i really like to know ur answer.

buildit wrote: I would first require anyone denying a soul should at least give a brief description of what they are calling a soul.

I'm referring to "the soul" that most people believe in today. That is, an immortal, spiritual/immaterial entity that controls your body from some kind of spiritual plane. Belief in a soul probably originated from ancient times when people didn't understand neurology or psychology and needed something to explain the emotions they felt and strange dreams they experienced.

R99 wrote: Nature is all about adapt and survive.

Not necessarily. Nature is simply what occurs in the universe as a result of physical laws. Unless you're referring to the biological ecosystem on earth, as the rest of your paragraph seems to suggest. Even then, that statement doesn't disprove anything I said.

R99 wrote: take mosquito for example. its there bcoz larger predator need them to survive like frog etc. u cannot compare animal to a human. there r both product of nature.

I don't know what you mean with this. But I think it's safe to say that a mosquito does not exist solely because purple martins and bats needs something to eat. "You cannot compare an animal to a human. They are both a product of nature." Wait ... they're both a product of nature. So why exactly can't I compare them?

R99 wrote: humans make money, fools someone or invent something and we call it intelligence.

Yes. To my mind, forming intricate societies based on merit/hardwork, and using problem solving and ingenuity to construct more efficient ways of doing things does in fact suggest intelligence.

R99 wrote: then y cant we sense upcoming weather change, or natural disaster, plenty of animal species can sense it b4 us. isnt that make them intelligent too.

We're talking about intelligence, right? Here's an experiment I'd like you to conduct: Google search these three words--"weather forecast tomorrow." Humans actually can know upcoming weather changes, natural disasters etc. Animals' ability to "sense" things does not suggest intelligence.

R99 wrote: they can too make conversation to one another with their own language. even plants have memories (mimosa pudika aka sensitive plant).

So basically your whole argument here is that animals are just as intelligent as humans? Interesting.

R99 wrote: lets just say the one human is u, and the next human is ur Mother or father or whoever important to u, what will be ur decision. i really like to know ur answer.

You missed the point of my demonstration. I'll tell you what I would do: I'd scream for him to let me go. I would not think. Perhaps in some part of my mind I'd delude myself with thoughts like, "Once he lets me go, I'll call the police and get help. Then we'll both be saved," or "Once he unties me, I'll attack him and free my Mother." But the fact of the matter is that the dark, primitive part of my mind which is concerned only with my own basic survival and well-being would want absolutely nothing more than for the torture to stop for me. That was the point of my example.

Here, I'll provide another scenario: Say you are aboard a ship with a hundred other people, when suddenly the ship crashes into a rock and begins to sink. You and all of the other passengers are thrown overboard--there is no time for life vests or anything at all. All of the people are thrashing about in a panic in the crowded waters in a tangled mess. Several people are trapped beneath all the flailing limbs and drown. The ship continues to sink, and as it totally submerges, it sucks people down to the depths with it. You are trapped under the water, trying desperately to reach oxygen. Flailing, panicked people kick you in the face and force you farther under. Now, as you start to slowly drown, you are NOT GOING TO THINK. You are going to become an ANIMAL, seizing desperately and viciously to survive. You are going to grab someone's leg and pull them down so that you can get up to the oxygen. You'd probably force their head underwater so that you could get higher up.

R99 wrote: its that experience, the emotions, the memories, the hope, the care for one another etc.... i believe every living thing have these.

Emotions, memories, and care for fellow humans all can and have been explained by neurology and psychology. Their origins are totally naturalistic.

deschainXIX wrote:

buildit wrote:I would first require anyone denying a soul should at least give a brief description of what they are calling a soul.

I'm referring to "the soul" that most people believe in today. That is, an immortal, spiritual/immaterial entity that controls your body from some kind of spiritual plane. Belief in a soul probably originated from ancient times when people didn't understand neurology or psychology and needed something to explain the emotions they felt and strange dreams they experienced.

So you think a soul is a embodiment that exists before you die? Sounds like the Catholic definition. But then from other post I know you are anti religion and would never believe in a life after death because that would open doors you cannot ignore. If you are to deny a soul you must also prove there is no life after death, nothing of the individual goes on. Our scientific instruments say you are right. At death, the body stops and all electro chemical actions in the brain stop. Our ability to detect ends. Yet there are numerous accounts of people who have died by medical standards and yet can account for the period of time they were dead. What part of their lifeless body was experiencing this? Why can our detection methods not find this part of the body which seems to maintain consciousness when the rest of the body stops. We don't know but for lack of a scientific explanation I'll call it the soul. For all intent and purpose an embodiment of the mental consciousness of the now dead body does seem to carry on. Where it goes and how long it can last outside the body is unknown but the idea it does exist like a new life from the husk it inhabited is awesome to me. ;)

buildit wrote: So you think a soul is a embodiment that exists before you die?

No, I think the soul doesn't exist. I was simply responding to your request for me to define the soul. For the purposes of the discussion, I defined it as most people would define it. Most members of today's society think they have a soul and most of them think that it is "the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal." But please note that I encouraged people to share their own unconventional opinions about the soul.

buildit wrote: Yet there are numerous accounts of people who have died by medical standards and yet can account for the period of time they were dead. What part of their lifeless body was experiencing this?

Their brain. Death, as defined legally, is the death of the brain. You're referring to people who have gone into cardiac arrest, in which the heart stops pumping oxygenated blood to the various members of the physiological orchestra. Cardiac arrest is not death. Cardiac arrest is failure of the heart. However, when the brain dies, it is a different story. You cannot revive a brain-dead person. They are truly gone. Previously you made allusion to this, but then seemed to forget it by bringing up all those "I Went to Heaven but Came Back" stories.

buildit wrote: the idea it does exist like a new life from the husk it inhabited is awesome to me.

Actually I used to believe in an afterlife too, and I used to think that if there was nothing after death, it would be absolutely terrible. But I've matured. Oblivion is true bliss. Dying is like going to sleep forever ... just infinite slumber. Nothing. In fact, many 90-year-olds say they're "ready to go." They're tired. They're ready to rest. To me, an eternity after death just sounds exhausting and stressful.

I feel sympathetic about this entire ordeal. Because when you tell people that there is no such thing as a soul (and subsequently no such thing as an afterlife) what you’re really telling them is that their grandmother who died a month ago isn't up in heaven, but instead she’s totally gone. So people have this sort of knee-jerk reaction, an existential meltdown I suppose, in which they revert to primitive sun-worshiping. But what I don’t understand is why people have these preconceived notions about how there has to be SOMETHING after death, or else the thought of death is too unbearable. Really, the thought of death from an atheistic standpoint is much more gentle and humanizing.

R99 wrote: but Animals dont kill a deer unless its hungry. but wen it comes to human, it kills not just for survive, it also for fun, greed etc etc..

that sentence explain everything. this is why humans cannot be compared to animals. did u just ignored that statement deschainXIX. whats ur thought. if humans r that intelligent y cant they follow this simple rule. DO NOT KILL IF ITS NOT NECESSARY.

deschainXIX wrote: We're talking about intelligence, right? Here's an experiment I'd like you to conduct: Google search these three words--"weather forecast tomorrow."

intelligence have many form. i got this from wikipedia

Intelligence has been defined in many different ways such as in terms of one's capacity for logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, emotional knowledge, memory, planning, creativity and problem solving. It can also be more generally described as the ability to perceive and/or retain knowledge or information and apply it to itself or other instances of knowledge or information creating referable understanding models of any size, density, or complexity, due to any conscious or subconscious imposed will or instruction to do so.

Intelligence is most widely studied in humans, but has also been observed in non-human animals and in plants. Artificial intelligence is the simulation of intelligence in machines.

so animals and plants have their own level of intelligence. they know more about the environment. and we dont. and i didnt said their intelligence r equal to us.

watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf3VvO2CcJg and u thought we r superior, we cant even find a place without a compass or a map.

i pointed these facts bcoz ur ego wants to believe humans r superior. and its not true,

deschainXIX wrote: So basically your whole argument here is that animals are just as intelligent as humans? Interesting.

yes, it is interesting indeed... 8-)

deschainXIX wrote: Say you are aboard a ship with a hundred other people, when suddenly the ship crashes into a rock and begins to sink. You and all of the other passengers are thrown overboard--there is no time for life vests or anything at all. All of the people are thrashing about in a panic in the crowded waters in a tangled mess. Several people are trapped beneath all the flailing limbs and drown. The ship continues to sink, and as it totally submerges, it sucks people down to the depths with it. You are trapped under the water, trying desperately to reach oxygen. Flailing, panicked people kick you in the face and force you farther under. Now, as you start to slowly drown, you are NOT GOING TO THINK. You are going to become an ANIMAL, seizing desperately and viciously to survive. You are going to grab someone's leg and pull them down so that you can get up to the oxygen. You'd probably force their head underwater so that you could get higher up.

u dont need to explain it again, i am just saying that sometimes in life we need to defend someone else more than ourself . and that time defines who u really are. even animals do that. and u r pointing things like animal instinct is bad thing. i think humans r brutal than animal. thats the whole point of my post. am just defending for animal world bcoz they dont have internet connection to post this :lol:

i am working out some theories about soul or spirit or whatever.

R99 wrote: when an energy enters in to a form (physical body) it becomes a soul. this we call the soul then experience this world as this form. later when the form runs its course and too week to contain this energy it exit from this form to be one with cosmic energy.

and what about this theory deschainXIX does this make any sense to anyone.??

R99 wrote:

R99 wrote:when an energy enters in to a form (physical body) it becomes a soul. this we call the soul then experience this world as this form. later when the form runs its course and too week to contain this energy it exit from this form to be one with cosmic energy.

and what about this theory deschainXIX does this make any sense to anyone.??

Yes, I have often theorized that the body is like an egg where the mental energy has time to grow and mature. Once the corporeal self dies the mental self (soul) is "hatched" but to what end I don't know yet.

Isaac Asimov wrote an interesting story once concerning the corporeal end and life after called the last answer.

In the story, an atheist physicist Murray Templeton dies of a heart attack and is greeted by a being of supposedly infinite knowledge. This being, referred to as the Voice, tells the physicist the nature of his life after death, as a nexus of electromagnetic forces. The Voice concludes that, while by all human ideas he most resembles God, he is contrary to any human conception of the being. The Voice informs him that all of the Universe is a creation of the Voice, the purpose of which was to result in intelligent life which, after death, the Voice could cull for his own purposes—to wit, Templeton, like all the others, is to think, for all eternity, so as to amuse him. Conversing with the Voice, Templeton learns that the Voice desires original thoughts by which to please His curiosity, but surrenders that yes, in fact, if He so desired, the Voice could happen upon those thoughts himself, of his own effort.

The physicist is appalled by the idea of thinking and discovering for no reason but to amuse a being capable of easily out-thinking him with a bit of effort. Templeton decides, therefore, to direct his thoughts towards spiting the Voice, whom he regards as a capricious entity, by destroying himself. The Voice dissuades him by pointing out it is easily within His power to reconstitute Templeton's disembodied form with that method of suicide, whatever it may be, disabled. Through further inquiry, Templeton discovers that the Voice (in a classic counterargument to the logical regression of the First Cause argument for the existence of god) has no knowledge of his own creation. Templeton realizes that this, in turn, suggests he has no knowledge of his own destruction, and concludes that the only vengeance for this tyranny is also the ultimate vengeance, and resolves to destroy the Voice.

At this epiphany and decision, the Voice reflects satisfaction, thinking that Templeton reached this conclusion rather faster than most of the countless beings currently trapped in the same condition, implying that the one thing the Voice truly wishes to learn from his thralls is the method by which he can be destroyed.

It seemed a curious tale of what hell might be. :o

Whenever people invoke the rite of thermodynamics, they always forget the second law: energy is never destroyed but only transformed, yes--but with each subsequent transformation of energy, there is an increase in entropy. If consciousness was somehow some form of reincarnate, transformed energy, it would only spiral into dissipated oblivion. Not to mention the idea doesn't really follow in the first place.

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It surely doesn't and the previous concessions that a soul might be found were only hypothetically granted by me for the sake of argument. But, like you, absolutely, I find it inconceivable. People often dream that "energies" will solve the problem as though they somehow constitute some conscious or life-giving ectoplasm and the buck stops there. They imagine such substance or force to be the very entity that is aware, the one with intentions, the controller, the meaner. The self. But this is simply false. The self is nothing but an illusion begotten by a cerebral computer capable of producing language and tell stories to itself. The self is merely a centre of narrative illusion analogous to the centre of gravity of celestial bodies in space. It's not there! :-D

Sure, everything is energy, actually, even matter. This one is just condensed energy. But this energy can beget different states depending on structure, motion, and complexity. Oh, plus how it interacts with the rest of the surrounding energy world. Because of this, it can be in conscious and unconscious states. Clearly, if arranged in a particular way, a unit of it (in the form of a complex organism) can become self-aware. This is what we are trying to figure out, and, ironically, the answer is right inside our heads. We are it!! B-)

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I am not exactly a heartless negative in the community like it says in the song. Just because I avoid others doesn't mean I don't do things every now and then, I am usually just very secretive about it. I have negative mood swings, and once I am in one of my negative mood swings, I am not about to change my mind on how I view things until that negative swing ends, and as my mood swings are usually random, I don't know usually what type of mood I'll be in next. And the type of negative mood is random as well.

Also most things discovered about science these days simply depress me, and make me mostly hate how our universe works and hate my life the more I learn about it. All I see is negativity. I can't see why science and technology just can't teach every species to asexually re-populate the earth through cloning and asexual reproduction. I mean us aromantic asexual people would really appreciate having science on our side for once like they do for some of the reptiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfgpHKP0_4 Actually it would be interesting if females evolved to be asexual like those lizards. Oh and let's not forget the video game characters who asexually reproduce all the time, Yoshi, Bowser (Bowser Jr was asexually reproduced despite the rumors), the Koopas, and the shemale Birdo. Or why they can't teach animals like us to stop hurting and killing their own kind nearly all the time (happens way more often than you think).

deschainXIX wrote: Whenever people invoke the rite of thermodynamics, they always forget the second law: energy is never destroyed but only transformed, yes--but with each subsequent transformation of energy, there is an increase in entropy. If consciousness was somehow some form of reincarnate, transformed energy, it would only spiral into dissipated oblivion. Not to mention the idea doesn't really follow in the first place.

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“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration...." Nikola Tesla.

And Nikola Tesla was right. But he was obviously talking about things that exist in the physical universe, the only things - I would contend as a physicalist - that exist. Every other notion thought to be of a metaphysical nature is illusory. I say this, not as a doctrine, but as someone who, according to the evidence, stands on firm ground. I speak according to everything observable in a universe that contains matter and its interactions according to the natural laws of nature.

If physicalism is false, if physical reality isn't all there is objectively, and someone has significant substance potent enough to overthrow what appears to be a supreme perspective, I will happily go through a paradigm shift and humbly stand corrected.

But a theory that intends to destroy materialism will at first seem counterintuitive and its exponent should expect me to resist it with strong scepticism. And I would urge, like Popper, for it to be submitted to the process of falsificationism.

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nesgirl wrote: I am not exactly a heartless negative in the community like it says in the song. Just because I avoid others doesn't mean I don't do things every now and then, I am usually just very secretive about it. I have negative mood swings, and once I am in one of my negative mood swings, I am not about to change my mind on how I view things until that negative swing ends, and as my mood swings are usually random, I don't know usually what type of mood I'll be in next. And the type of negative mood is random as well.

Also most things discovered about science these days simply depress me, and make me mostly hate how our universe works and hate my life the more I learn about it. All I see is negativity. I can't see why science and technology just can't teach every species to asexually re-populate the earth through cloning and asexual reproduction. I mean us aromantic asexual people would really appreciate having science on our side for once like they do for some of the reptiles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfgpHKP0_4 Actually it would be interesting if females evolved to be asexual like those lizards. Oh and let's not forget the video game characters who asexually reproduce all the time, Yoshi, Bowser (Bowser Jr was asexually reproduced despite the rumors), the Koopas, and the shemale Birdo. Or why they can't teach animals like us to stop hurting and killing their own kind nearly all the time (happens way more often than you think).

"One man's tool is another man's weapon." it is true nesgirl. there is still hope. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

did u tried meditation? i heard this helps to calm our mind from useless monologue. some times too much thinking is not good for you.

Human experimenting are prohibited. 8-)
of cause, humans can be taught to stop hurting each other. if they have right amount of knowledge to do so. our school or collage only teaching children to make money when they grow up, nothing more there is to know in a school nowadays. We force them to think that way.

instead y not teach them how to think. not to teach just to make money. and ofcoz we need money to live , (well... only humans) make a change from ur home, rest of the world follows.

R99 wrote:

"One man's tool is another man's weapon." it is true nesgirl. there is still hope. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.

did u tried meditation? i heard this helps to calm our mind from useless monologue. some times too much thinking is not good for you.

I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that. And pessimism is actually my negative half or in other words, my Tiger side. I have a Pussycat half, although it is NOT optimism. If I am ever in my pussycat half (I really hate when I end up in my pussycat half), then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens. Because when I get into my supposed pussycat half, I cannot control my hyper mood swing, and while having the adrenaline overload, I may get into daredevil mode and play the devil's advocate or do daredevil acts. Also higher levels I can get terrible insomnia, and the more days I have insomnia and the swing, the more it affects me (I really don't want to get into how terrible the side effects can get).

Human experimenting are prohibited. 8-)
of cause, humans can be taught to stop hurting each other. if they have right amount of knowledge to do so. our school or collage only teaching children to make money when they grow up, nothing more there is to know in a school nowadays. We force them to think that way.

That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)

instead y not teach them how to think. not to teach just to make money. and ofcoz we need money to live , (well... only humans) make a change from ur home, rest of the world follows.

Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.

You are right about that though, all our species cares about is power (money), and survival, and they will bully anyone to do it. Then there's the whole romance thing which is a BIG waste since 75% of them end in failure and ends up with everyone hating each other. This is why I don't believe in partnerships, and why I think being friends with the cats and dogs is a better alternate.

nesgirl wrote: That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.

u r right, but its the negative side of the world. wicked men always thinks in negative way. like turning a tool in to a weapon. but when the tool in its rightful place it wont do any damage. dont think hard on that. its the way of life. (of humans ofcoz). think it in this way, to create energy we need a negative and positive side. balance is a must.

nesgirl wrote: I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that.

i wish i could do that, if u trained ur senses to this level, y not ur mind. am sure u can do it to ur mind too. if u could manage to perfect it , most of ur problem will go away.

nesgirl wrote: then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens

very funny video. but in real life. thats going to be a problem.

nesgirl wrote: That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)

u know y people tend too bully other people?, bcoz they got bullied too... but they r too week to see through it, so they tend to think bulling other people make them feel better. the problem starts within the family, lack of good guidance and care lead to this behavior. i see u r one of the victim, so sorry to hear it. try to over come it seeing through every thing. there is always a reason to everything happening in this world, instead of thinking its not going to change, do what u can do to change it.... i know its easy to say, but its worth a shot.

nesgirl wrote: Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.

True, survival of the fittest is the way of nature. but think it in this way. hard time make us strong. if everyone lives an easy life that will make them weak. this is y life throws us in difficult time. we need to push on to stay alive.

in this world there r lots of suicides. i know everyone knows y. bcoz they r too weak to fight back in life, they got an easy life till then. but wen the life throw u through some tough time to grow up, they collapse. instead of thinking "it is the end", try to think "this makes us strong". if u take this way through every negative situation, u will succeed to survive. To me this is what meant by "Survival of the fittest."

Summerlander wrote: And Nikola Tesla was right. But he was obviously talking about things that exist in the physical universe, the only things - I would contend as a physicalist - that exist. Every other notion thought to be of a metaphysical nature is illusory. I say this, not as a doctrine, but as someone who, according to the evidence, stands on firm ground. I speak according to everything observable in a universe that contains matter and its interactions according to the natural laws of nature.

If physicalism is false, if physical reality isn't all there is objectively, and someone has significant substance potent enough to overthrow what appears to be a supreme perspective, I will happily go through a paradigm shift and humbly stand corrected.

But a theory that intends to destroy materialism will at first seem counterintuitive and its exponent should expect me to resist it with strong scepticism. And I would urge, like Popper, for it to be submitted to the process of falsificationism.

[ Post made via Android ] Image

I get it summer, Nikola Tesla is ofcoz talking about physical reality. but i am talking about energy here.it is connected to physics. i stated b4, in my view soul is a form of energy. i voted in "Both animals and humans have souls" is becoz of this reason. i dont believe in afterlife but it doesnt mean am refusing after death, there is nothing left. may be our energy turns in to some other forms of energy that cant be detected by our current science (yet, u cant predict wen some smart people discover something that...truly out of this world.) we cant see magnetic field, the only way to see it through other objects, a medium like magnet sand or iron sand. but its there. just like this we cant see this energy (am saying it again "YET") but it doesnt mean its not there. there is gotta be a different kind of energy that makes a living, thinking creature like us and other life forms. and I am searching for it till the end of my life. :)

R99 wrote:

nesgirl wrote:That worries me even more if someone can use some else's tool to inflict mass homicide. It is possible for others to fight back. If you learn self defense, you can protect others and yourself without the use of a weapon, and it helps especially in a very negative world where the policy is protect yourself and others or die.

u r right, but its the negative side of the world. wicked men always thinks in negative way. like turning a tool in to a weapon. but when the tool in its rightful place it wont do any damage. dont think hard on that. its the way of life. (of humans ofcoz). think it in this way, to create energy we need a negative and positive side. balance is a must.

nesgirl wrote: I think all the time. Whether I am Lucid Dreaming, zoning out, or in real life. That is how I work as a designer. Even when I meditate, I imagine myself in a blank room. However, I have to meditate somewhere soundproof and without too much scent or movement in the room, or I get distracted. Because I have trained my 3 very sensitive senses hearing, smell, and touch to tell what is in the room, and what is going on, I can essentially tell if something is amiss in the room, and will get startled out of position. The only time I am 100% relaxed when meditating is when I end up in a WILD, although I am not getting into that.

i wish i could do that, if u trained ur senses to this level, y not ur mind. am sure u can do it to ur mind too. if u could manage to perfect it , most of ur problem will go away.

nesgirl wrote: then I end up something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg and it is NOT something to laugh at when it happens

very funny video. but in real life. thats going to be a problem.

nesgirl wrote: That is correct. What do they do for the bullying? Absolutely nothing. Most of the time, people learn from the bullying how to treat others in society. The bullies learn to become abusers. And the victims learn to hate life and become pessimists. It is even said mental disorders, agoraphobia, and even aromance and asexuality develop because of bullying. (this is how I learned to become a pessimist is through physical and verbal bullying)

u know y people tend too bully other people?, bcoz they got bullied too... but they r too week to see through it, so they tend to think bulling other people make them feel better. the problem starts within the family, lack of good guidance and care lead to this behavior. i see u r one of the victim, so sorry to hear it. try to over come it seeing through every thing. there is always a reason to everything happening in this world, instead of thinking its not going to change, do what u can do to change it.... i know its easy to say, but its worth a shot.

nesgirl wrote: Because unfortunately, that won't get them to learn. Bullying will always happen, it happens in the animal kingdom nearly all the time. And if I recall, the law of nature does say "Survival of the fittest." And unfortunately, it seems to be that way in our society as well. Our society will frequently reject the handicap or the lower of our species, just like they do in the wild. Or they will even kill them. ANY belief anyone has is just another excuse to bully our species to make them look tougher. Depression also slowly kills the resistance of a person, cutting the lifespan, making this survival of the fittest very true.

True, survival of the fittest is the way of nature. but think it in this way. hard time make us strong. if everyone lives an easy life that will make them weak. this is y life throws us in difficult time. we need to push on to stay alive.

in this world there r lots of suicides. i know everyone knows y. bcoz they r too weak to fight back in life, they got an easy life till then. but wen the life throw u through some tough time to grow up, they collapse. instead of thinking "it is the end", try to think "this makes us strong". if u take this way through every negative situation, u will succeed to survive. To me this is what meant by "Survival of the fittest."

On April 3, 1982, my mother’s cousin, Stephanie Roper, a beautiful, young, and talented artist (whose artwork was later put up in a museum), was driving home from an evening spent with her college friends. She had dropped everyone off at their houses and was driving home herself when her car broke down on an empty, dark road. Eventually two men came along, asking her if she needed help.

She accepted. Well these two dirty, uneducated men were the last human beings she ever saw. Of course.

They abducted her at gunpoint, taking her to a small, half-rotten shack in the middle of the woods where, for the next two weeks, they brutally and constantly tortured, raped, and sodomized her. They ripped out all of her teeth and cut off her breasts, cauterizing the wounds with a clothes iron. One accidentally called the other by his first name, and so, becoming afraid of identification, they decided to kill her. She tried several times to escape, and upon her final attempt, when they found her in the woods, they accidentally split her skull open with a logging chain. And as she lay twitching on the ground, blood and brain pumping out of a fissure in her helmet of calcium, they decided she was too damaged, and they simply shot her to death where she lay squirming in the leaves and mud.

They dragged her back to the hut and, in an attempt to prevent identification, they cut off her hands and feet then set her on fire.

Well … about a week or two later the police dragged whatever was left of her out of the swamp. A deacon (whose piety luckily was not so idiotic as to conform to the Catholic belief that all confessions should stay in the booth and beyond the reach of law-enforcement ears) had listened to the confession of the younger of the two men, who had been driven mad by the guilt and horror at what he had done. The deacon, wisely putting humanity before doctrine, tipped off the police, and they arrested the younger man who subsequently turned in his “partner.”

This narrative may seem familiar to you, or at least the basic story-arc. That’s because these things (and some things even worse and more unjust than Stephanie Roper) happen every day. Every. Day. Are we not always hearing news stories about needless, mindless, pointless, horrors? The misery this girl must have gone through. Think of all she endured. Think of it.

Now--you make the outrageous claim that “everything happens for a reason.” I find that frankly fascinating and indeed psychologically revealing. Perhaps while you were reading Stephanie’s story, your blood pressure began to rise. I know that mine certainly rose while writing about it. There is something to be discerned from the fact that, at the moment, I want nothing more than to kill those two men (who were spared death-row and are presently serving two lifetimes each in prison). Injustice and simple wrong-ness are the most difficult human emotions to grapple with. They consume us to the point of utter insanity and torment and intellectual misery. We like things to make sense. We simply do. Our minds are mechanisms that love order and systematic, rightful processes. When something like this happens, we are not able to comprehend it. The world just doesn’t seem to make any sense. It’s a cruel, mindless, anti-magnanimous machine whose murderous cogs we are trapped within like rats in a trap. Some people like to comfort themselves by saying things like, “Everything happens for a reason.”

So, R99, why exactly did Stephanie have to suffer so much before meeting her brief and violent end? Was it so that she could be “made stronger and better-equipped to endure the hardships of life?” Was it so that the experience could make her a better person? Or maybe God, in his kindness and benevolence, was trying to teach her a lesson or get her attention and things simply got a little out of hand? I don’t think any of those things are the case, and you probably don’t either. What happened did not better anyone--not Stephanie, not her parents, not her family, not even the monsters who perpetrated the crime. It was the very definition of an atrocity--pure and simple and evil.

The best way we can overcome the world and remain happy is not to practice ignorant and offensive philosophies but to instead practice contentment and acceptance. The universe is beyond our control. It’s a wild animal that is too powerful and complicated to be subdued or comprehended by men. “We either learn to accept or we end up writing letters home with crayons.” --Stephen King

I would, however, like to reaffirm the crucial difference between mental disorder and realism (often misinterpreted as pessimism). I think in nesgirl’s case, she is plagued by mental disorder. Reasoning with her and giving her such a feel-good philosophy as “everything happens for a reason, to make us stronger” will not help her or get anyone anywhere. She needs psychiatric treatment, just as a man with a broken leg needs a physician.

R99 wrote: u r right, but its the negative side of the world. wicked men always thinks in negative way. like turning a tool in to a weapon. but when the tool in its rightful place it wont do any damage. dont think hard on that. its the way of life. (of humans ofcoz). think it in this way, to create energy we need a negative and positive side. balance is a must.

There is no such thing as positivity in the real world. Science completely ruins everything positive in reality you can think of.

i wish i could do that, if u trained ur senses to this level, y not ur mind. am sure u can do it to ur mind too. if u could manage to perfect it , most of ur problem will go away.

The only places I can truly be calm are in Multimedia Design or in a Lucid Dream, not during Meditation itself. While in there, I am in my own reality, and know I am free from the limitations of science and reality and can be free for a while. But when I return to the real world, I get very depressed and negative again, and am often in a bad mood because I have to return.

very funny video. but in real life. thats going to be a problem.

You see why I am mostly a pessimist. I don't have any real positive feelings. Just a hyped like emotion that is like I am on some type of drug.

u know y people tend too bully other people?, bcoz they got bullied too... but they r too week to see through it, so they tend to think bulling other people make them feel better. the problem starts within the family, lack of good guidance and care lead to this behavior. i see u r one of the victim, so sorry to hear it. try to over come it seeing through every thing. there is always a reason to everything happening in this world, instead of thinking its not going to change, do what u can do to change it.... i know its easy to say, but its worth a shot.

Not every bully is like that. Some bullies attempt to do this for power. Saying there is a reason for things happening...I don't know about that, my cousin was murdered, my 2 really good friends died of illnesses at a really young age (one was only 16, and I was 16), leaving me very bitter and angry in both instances. With my teenage friend, I ended up getting into very bitter verbal and physical fights with his bipolar mother who was verbal and physical right back (her emotions were very bitter and angry, my emotional mood swings were very bitter and anger, and we clashed like 2 angry female Tigresses with claws and teeth out. Her husband and my mother backed far away), and since we both have never forgiven each other for fighting like tigers.

True, survival of the fittest is the way of nature. but think it in this way. hard time make us strong. if everyone lives an easy life that will make them weak. this is y life throws us in difficult time. we need to push on to stay alive.

in this world there r lots of suicides. i know everyone knows y. bcoz they r too weak to fight back in life, they got an easy life till then. but wen the life throw u through some tough time to grow up, they collapse. instead of thinking "it is the end", try to think "this makes us strong". if u take this way through every negative situation, u will succeed to survive. To me this is what meant by "Survival of the fittest."

Tell that to my father, who social works the people who are mentally scarred and people who have become mentally ill from such experiences. Such people are so scarred they may never be the same again, or they become bitter with life.

They abducted her at gunpoint, taking her to a small, half-rotten shack in the middle of the woods where, for the next two weeks, they brutally and constantly tortured, raped, and sodomized her. They ripped out all of her teeth and cut off her breasts, cauterizing the wounds with a clothes iron. One accidentally called the other by his first name, and so, becoming afraid of identification, they decided to kill her. She tried several times to escape, and upon her final attempt, when they found her in the woods, they accidentally split her skull open with a logging chain. And as she lay twitching on the ground, blood and brain pumping out of a fissure in her helmet of calcium, they decided she was too damaged, and they simply shot her to death where she lay squirming in the leaves and mud.

They dragged her back to the hut and, in an attempt to prevent identification, they cut off her hands and feet then set her on fire.

Well … about a week or two later the police dragged whatever was left of her out of the swamp. A deacon (whose piety luckily was not so idiotic as to conform to the Catholic belief that all confessions should stay in the booth and beyond the reach of law-enforcement ears) had listened to the confession of the younger of the two men, who had been driven mad by the guilt and horror at what he had done. The deacon, wisely putting humanity before doctrine, tipped off the police, and they arrested the younger man who subsequently turned in his “partner.” v

WOW. Oh my gosh. No wonder you are so bitter and angry with people all the time. I feel bad for you for losing your cousin. I feel you losing your cousin. My 3 year old cousin was murdered as well last winter, and his 5 year old brother had to watch his 3 year old brother get murdered right in front of him (crushed to death). The sociopath even tried to flee the scene after murdering my cousin, but 2 big guys saw what happened and tried to kill him for it, and would have if the cops wouldn't have showed up. Guy got a light sentence on what he did too due to his sleazy lawyers (1.5 years in prison), which wasn't enough justice on my family for killing my cousin. Much of my college tuition last winter had to go in paying for the funeral because his family couldn't afford to pay for it (which in the end I got refunded on that year since I had that shock and was out for the season). Distrust, unfairness, anger, darkness, and negativity, this is why we probably both see the world in this way, and why we both see that in others

There is something to be discerned from the fact that, at the moment, I want nothing more than to kill those two men (who were spared death-row and are presently serving two lifetimes each in prison). Injustice and simple wrong-ness are the most difficult human emotions to grapple with. They consume us to the point of utter insanity and torment and intellectual misery. We like things to make sense. We simply do. Our minds are mechanisms that love order and systematic, rightful processes. When something like this happens, we are not able to comprehend it. The world just doesn’t seem to make any sense. It’s a cruel, mindless, anti-magnanimous machine whose murderous cogs we are trapped within like rats in a trap. Some people like to comfort themselves by saying things like, “Everything happens for a reason.”

You and me both. You should have seen the animation I did of the sociopath in my animation class after he murdered my cousin (although my teacher said I couldn't kill him). I beat him up, had him hit by a train, stabbed by spikes, electrocuted, set on fire (and had everything hanging off of him externally burned off), then I sewed a pig nose, pig ears, and a pig tail on him, forcing him to live life as a pig with third degree burns all over his body. Everyone in my class was throwing up on how...graphic my animation was and said I was taking it too seriously. And I still haven't forgiven him, and continue to kill and torture him in animations, the Sims, and within my Lucid Dreams in the cruelest fashions.

I would, however, like to reaffirm the crucial difference between mental disorder and realism (often misinterpreted as pessimism). I think in nesgirl’s case, she is plagued by mental disorder. Reasoning with her and giving her such a feel-good philosophy as “everything happens for a reason, to make us stronger” will not help her or get anyone anywhere. She needs psychiatric treatment, just as a man with a broken leg needs a physician.

Being a pessimist is the real thing. It means a person sees things in a very negative way, and if you don't believe me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR47fNGWDuc And according to this video, you CANNOT reason with a pessimist. Don't tell me what I need or what I don't. I don't need others bossing me around telling me what I need or what I don't. This is also why I hide my injuries from others, because I don't want to be bossed around.

U r lack of good partner, as a friend as a father as a mother as a husband as a brother as a sister. and all the partner ship in the world. unless u find it ur self, the life "DRAGS" on out of control. if u find my reasoning as "bossing around" no one can help u, unless u do to ur self. if u cant find a friend, find it here , in this forum. and if ur heart is big enough, rest of em' too.

figure it urself "Life's Maze".... or get someone who can.

R99 wrote: U r lack of good partner, as a friend as a father as a mother as a husband as a brother as a sister. and all the partner ship in the world. unless u find it ur self, the life "DRAGS" on out of control. if u find my reasoning as "bossing around" no one can help u, unless u do to ur self. if u cant find a friend, find it here , in this forum. and if ur heart is big enough, rest of em' too.

figure it urself "Life's Maze".... or get someone who can.

I had friends years ago, it wasn't like I didn't. However I either broke up with them. Or as I told you before with my closest ones, they literally died. Like when I was only 16 and I had that one really close friend whom I was able to talk to about my dreams (which I didn't know were WILDs) for a couple months, finding out he had them too despite him being mute, and I lost him to the flu, that was really devastating. Then just last year, I lost one a really close friend I had who was one of few who was one of my Lucid Dream friends from high school to pneumonia. I do agree on platonic friends, although I don't make friends, because I don't trust anyone anymore, because I am afraid of being betrayed, hurt, and bullied now (I was betrayed by someone before, when that person stole something very valuable from me). However I don't agree on romantic partnerships with guys, because I am an aromantic asexual, and believe the guy would turn me into their working house slave and person who makes the all the money at my job, and then he spends all the cash and bankrupts me, exactly like the exes did with my sisters.

deschainXIX wrote: On April 3, 1982, my mother’s cousin, Stephanie Roper, a beautiful, young, and talented artist (whose artwork was later put up in a museum), was driving home from an evening spent with her college friends. She had dropped everyone off at their houses and was driving home herself when her car broke down on an empty, dark road. Eventually two men came along, asking her if she needed help.

She accepted. Well these two dirty, uneducated men were the last human beings she ever saw. Of course.

They abducted her at gunpoint, taking her to a small, half-rotten shack in the middle of the woods where, for the next two weeks, they brutally and constantly tortured, raped, and sodomized her. They ripped out all of her teeth and cut off her breasts, cauterizing the wounds with a clothes iron. One accidentally called the other by his first name, and so, becoming afraid of identification, they decided to kill her. She tried several times to escape, and upon her final attempt, when they found her in the woods, they accidentally split her skull open with a logging chain. And as she lay twitching on the ground, blood and brain pumping out of a fissure in her helmet of calcium, they decided she was too damaged, and they simply shot her to death where she lay squirming in the leaves and mud.

They dragged her back to the hut and, in an attempt to prevent identification, they cut off her hands and feet then set her on fire.

Well … about a week or two later the police dragged whatever was left of her out of the swamp. A deacon (whose piety luckily was not so idiotic as to conform to the Catholic belief that all confessions should stay in the booth and beyond the reach of law-enforcement ears) had listened to the confession of the younger of the two men, who had been driven mad by the guilt and horror at what he had done. The deacon, wisely putting humanity before doctrine, tipped off the police, and they arrested the younger man who subsequently turned in his “partner.”

This narrative may seem familiar to you, or at least the basic story-arc. That’s because these things (and some things even worse and more unjust than Stephanie Roper) happen every day. Every. Day. Are we not always hearing news stories about needless, mindless, pointless, horrors? The misery this girl must have gone through. Think of all she endured. Think of it.

Now--you make the outrageous claim that “everything happens for a reason.” I find that frankly fascinating and indeed psychologically revealing. Perhaps while you were reading Stephanie’s story, your blood pressure began to rise. I know that mine certainly rose while writing about it. There is something to be discerned from the fact that, at the moment, I want nothing more than to kill those two men (who were spared death-row and are presently serving two lifetimes each in prison). Injustice and simple wrong-ness are the most difficult human emotions to grapple with. They consume us to the point of utter insanity and torment and intellectual misery. We like things to make sense. We simply do. Our minds are mechanisms that love order and systematic, rightful processes. When something like this happens, we are not able to comprehend it. The world just doesn’t seem to make any sense. It’s a cruel, mindless, anti-magnanimous machine whose murderous cogs we are trapped within like rats in a trap. Some people like to comfort themselves by saying things like, “Everything happens for a reason.”

So, R99, why exactly did Stephanie have to suffer so much before meeting her brief and violent end? Was it so that she could be “made stronger and better-equipped to endure the hardships of life?” Was it so that the experience could make her a better person? Or maybe God, in his kindness and benevolence, was trying to teach her a lesson or get her attention and things simply got a little out of hand? I don’t think any of those things are the case, and you probably don’t either. What happened did not better anyone--not Stephanie, not her parents, not her family, not even the monsters who perpetrated the crime. It was the very definition of an atrocity--pure and simple and evil.

The best way we can overcome the world and remain happy is not to practice ignorant and offensive philosophies but to instead practice contentment and acceptance. The universe is beyond our control. It’s a wild animal that is too powerful and complicated to be subdued or comprehended by men. “We either learn to accept or we end up writing letters home with crayons.” --Stephen King

I would, however, like to reaffirm the crucial difference between mental disorder and realism (often misinterpreted as pessimism). I think in nesgirl’s case, she is plagued by mental disorder. Reasoning with her and giving her such a feel-good philosophy as “everything happens for a reason, to make us stronger” will not help her or get anyone anywhere. She needs psychiatric treatment, just as a man with a broken leg needs a physician.

Wow deschainXIX, i say it again, u r a piece of art indeed. that post was for nesgirl. and nesgirl alone. i was just wanted give her something to think of, to think in the opposite direction. (she always thinks the negative way) And u Sir, gave her another reason hate this world and also hate herself. i know the cold world. dont need anyone to teach me about this world. u have no idea how people act here. rape,murder, and everything u could think of all here too. i am not living in a candy land here. someone need to think differently, and act differently. some people do, and thats y world is not in its end (i meant human race ).

i know u r a smart person deschainXIX. but it doesnt mean i am wrong.

deschainXIX wrote: I think in nesgirl’s case, she is plagued by mental disorder.

Let me put it this way. u said this not just to me,not just to her, to entire forum.(u forgot its a public forum) do u have any idea how people feel when u say these things in their face. its like telling a cancer patient "u r going to die no matter what" by the doctor..... Instead y not tell them like this "dont worry everything will be fine." am sure this makes a patient much better than the first statement. (and we know even cancer can be controlled by will power) my post was like the second statement , i encouraged her to fight back her negative feelings. we all know mind is powerful tool to attain anything. am sure she will be just fine if she find the way. next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it.

see u around deschianXIX.

i wanted to edit my previous post, but u posted the replay. so here it goes...

"And nesgirl, i know am a stranger to u, but dont take my post as "bossing around". forgive me. am just trying to make a friendly conversation. am not that good in english.. "

nesgirl wrote: I had friends years ago, it wasn't like I didn't. However I either broke up with them. Or as I told you before with my closest ones, they literally died. Like when I was only 16 and I had that one really close friend whom I was able to talk to about my dreams (which I didn't know were WILDs) for a couple months, finding out he had them too despite him being mute, and I lost him to the flu, that was really devastating. Then just last year, I lost one a really close friend I had who was one of few who was one of my Lucid Dream friends from high school to pneumonia. I do agree on platonic friends, although I don't make friends, because I don't trust anyone anymore, because I am afraid of being betrayed, hurt, and bullied now (I was betrayed by someone before, when that person stole something very valuable from me). However I don't agree on romantic partnerships with guys, because I am an aromantic asexual, and believe the guy would turn me into their working house slave and person who makes the all the money at my job, and then he spends all the cash and bankrupts me, exactly like the exes did with my sisters.

u r saying it like "we r going to die, so y we live this life??" i believe in purpose of life. am here in this world for a purpose. am searching for it. maybe u will find it too, if u let it find u. till now i believe my purpose is to find something never been found by anyone. everybody need an adventure to fight back in life. u do too.

may be ur special partner still waiting for u somewer, if u dont let them to enter ur life. they never will. we fall but we get up, thats life. nobody stay at ground after they fall. if nobody is there to help u, u need to get up urself. i must see through everything to find my purpose. and that what i am trying here. maybe one day u too.

R99 wrote: Wow deschainXIX, i say it again, u r a piece of art indeed. that post was for nesgirl. and nesgirl alone. i was just wanted give her something to think of, to think in the opposite direction. (she always thinks the negative way) And u Sir, gave her another reason hate this world and also hate herself. i know the cold world. dont need anyone to teach me about this world. u have no idea how people act here. rape,murder, and everything u could think of all here too. i am not living in a candy land here. someone need to think differently, and act differently. some people do, and thats y world is not in its end (i meant human race ).

i know u r a smart person deschainXIX. but it doesnt mean i am wrong.

Many of his posts are like that in my perspective. Like the time he talked about cannibalism. Although I can understand his reasoning if he hates his life because of his cousin being brutally murdered. My 3 year old cousin was brutally murdered, and I have never forgiven the guy for it either. Also the sociopath managed to brain damage the father in the process. And since then, my cousin (the father) has been mentally slow (he literally suffered a mental handicap because of a sociopath).

There was this one time where I got heavily criticized for my asexual attitude when I said if I was one of 2 humans on earth and the other was a guy, I would resort to DNA cloning to asexually clone our species, since DNA cloning is much faster and less disgusting.

Let me put it this way. u said this not just to me,not just to her, to entire forum.(u forgot its a public forum) do u have any idea how people feel when u say these things in their face. its like telling a cancer patient "u r going to die no matter what" by the doctor..... Instead y not tell them like this "dont worry everything will be fine." am sure this makes a patient much better than the first statement. (and we know even cancer can be controlled by will power) my post was like the second statement , i encouraged her to fight back her negative feelings. we all know mind is powerful tool to attain anything. am sure she will be just fine if she find the way. next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it.

see u around deschianXIX.

I am well aware I am dealing with my own issues. They are my issues however, and while I am angry at the bullies who caused me to have some issues, I don't want to be pitied for it. If anyone should be pitied, it should be the people who were mercilessly killed like my cousin, or the people who were cancer victims.

u r saying it like "we r going to die, so y we live this life??" i believe in purpose of life. am here in this world for a purpose. am searching for it. maybe u will find it too, if u let it find u. till now i believe my purpose is to find something never been found by anyone. everybody need an adventure to fight back in life. u do too.

I lost my purpose for even wanting to exist in middle school. I don't know whether it was because of the meds I was assigned to or what (they did have Melatonin in them) but my WILDs I started having shortly after that were starting to become different. And I had probability Lucid Dreams for the first time, which I had never experienced before in my life. I didn't even know what Lucid Dreams were, so actually it was because I was having probability Lucid Dreams, I got really curious and found out about Lucid Dreaming. Although I am not mentioning my probability Lucid Dreams on here, because last time I mentioned one, I was accused of faking it.

may be ur special partner still waiting for u somewer, if u dont let them to enter ur life. they never will. we fall but we get up, thats life. nobody stay at ground after they fall. if nobody is there to help u, u need to get up urself. i must see through everything to find my purpose. and that what i am trying here. maybe one day u too.

I told you I am an aromantic asexual. Here this video might explain things a bit more clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knug2fbynf4 And as far as getting myself up, I do that fairly often. Independence is probably the best option that there is.

nesgirl wrote: I told you I am an aromantic asexual.

i get it nesgirl, what i meant by partnership is not about marriage or boyfriend thingy, i said about a friend, who can be a good listener. and the one who truly understands u. i think that is the real partnership. i cant change u, i am just words in this forum. U r the one who can change URSELF. everything will be just fine. :)

R99 wrote:

nesgirl wrote:I told you I am an aromantic asexual.

i get it nesgirl, what i meant by partnership is not about marriage or boyfriend thingy, i said about a friend, who can be a good listener. and the one who truly understands u. i think that is the real partnership. i cant change u, i am just words in this forum. U r the one who can change URSELF. everything will be just fine. :)

Unfortunately there aren't very many out there who are like that. It is way too hard these days to find anyone who can handle it, as at my worst times, even my own parents couldn't handle it and had to go on vacation. I have found acquaintances out there, and we have gotten along fine. Although most of the time, if others find out about my mood swings, they run away or avoid me most of the time after that. So it is near impossible to actually find anyone who actually can relate. Although I do make friends with the animals and talk to them nearly all the time. I also make friends with the characters in the digital, multimedia, and dream worlds at times as they are programming and can't hurt me (I am almost thinking about that Japanese Loveplus game where you can be friends or platonic friends with a character in the game of the opposite gender, and you can pick and choose their interests). Also I am considering going into the programming area of the industry and creating myself a robot to befriend. When you create a robot for yourself, you get to choose the interests of the robot, and how well the robot will react towards everything. So you will always have a friend.

R99 wrote: Wow deschainXIX, i say it again, u r a piece of art indeed.

I would suggest that you refrain from merely gasping in prudish outrage and instead form a real, considered response to my post, but you have long proved yourself time and time again incapable of doing so. Your only arguments consist of sobbing and screaming, "Hey, you can't say that--that's offensive!" I bet you didn't even read or digest any of the things I said. Oh ... and just so you stop making yourself look so unlettered and illiterate: The phrase is "piece of work," not "piece of art."

R99 wrote: that post was for nesgirl. and nesgirl alone.

Since you appear to be unable to grasp the concept of a "forum," I will now attempt to explain it to you: A forum is a place where all sorts of people can discuss ideas freely and openly, with anyone who wishes to enter the discussion. How, in your minuscule mind, can you possibly rationalize making such a statement as, "Only nesgirl is allowed to respond to the things I say. No one else is allowed to share their thoughts about what I wrote."? Not to mention, R99, that this is my thread, where we discuss the soul. You cannot enter my ring and then cry like a child when you get stung for saying something so inconceivably moronic.

R99 wrote: i was just wanted give her something to think of, to think in the opposite direction. (she always thinks the negative way) And u Sir, gave her another reason hate this world and also hate herself.

The mechanism of refutation within a Socratic environment must be foreign to you. Research it for me, would you? Now ... I was providing a refutation of what you "gave her to think of." After my refutation (which you failed to provide a response to), I proceeded to provide a much more sound, rational, and profound solution to crippling, manic cynicism. I advocated the ideals of acceptance and contentment--this aspect of my post you seemed to awkwardly skirt around entirely, apparently finding nothing jeeringly crude and mocking to say about it. Whatever feel-good philosophy you “gave her to think of,” did absolutely nothing to mend her vexed psyche, may I point out. She is also on my side, having found something she related with and connected to in my post, and finding absolutely nothing profound or thought-worthy in yours.

R99 wrote: i know the cold world. dont need anyone to teach me about this world. u have no idea how people act here. rape,murder, and everything u could think of all here too. i am not living in a candy land here. someone need to think differently, and act differently. some people do, and thats y world is not in its end (i meant human race ).

Out of this fumbling, floundering mess of a piece of rhetoric, I managed to perceive some semblance of the idea you were trying to communicate (I suggest learning to do everyone else the same courtesy they do you: carefully constructing legible sentences that accurately relate your response, which you are required to spend at least ten minutes considering). I nonetheless have so many questions about what in hell is going on between the two or three brain cells you possess. Since you apparently “know the cold world” (that’s a direct quote, mind you), why do say such petulant, childish things? Why do you seem to think that I don’t know “how people act here” (which I presume to mean, I don’t know how humans act on earth), when I just provided a long, horrifically detailed synopsis of a rather dark corner of my life? Apparently you do need someone to teach you about the nature of reality. You simply cannot say things like “Everything happens for a reason” and expect thinking, intellectual people to mindlessly accept it. Lucid people are bound to refute it. Such a claim is not only idiotic, ill-conceived, and deluded, but also blatantly insulting to all those who are suffering and who have suffered. You are telling them, “Suck it up. Your suffering has a purpose, and it was meant and predestined to happen. This is making you stronger, making you a better person, so stop complaining.”

R99 wrote: i know u r a smart person deschainXIX. but it doesnt mean i am wrong.

Yes. It does. You did not present anything coming even close to resembling a sufficient refutation. Allow me to reference again that revised age-old colloquialism: If you have nothing intelligent to say, don’t say anything at all.

R99 wrote: Let me put it this way. u said this not just to me,not just to her, to entire forum.(u forgot its a public forum) do u have any idea how people feel when u say these things in their face. its like telling a cancer patient "u r going to die no matter what" by the doctor..... Instead y not tell them like this "dont worry everything will be fine." am sure this makes a patient much better than the first statement. (and we know even cancer can be controlled by will power) my post was like the second statement , i encouraged her to fight back her negative feelings. we all know mind is powerful tool to attain anything. am sure she will be just fine if she find the way.

Here we exhaustingly return to your small-minded misconceptions about what a forum is. You contradict yourself so much I don’t even feel compelled to say anything. Nesgirl, on the other hand, was intelligent enough to know there was nothing wrong with what I said. She has publicly accepted, admitted, and apologized again and again about her mental disorder. Here on the forum she is always discussing her mood swings with us, and she is well-known and accepted by everyone, including me. We are reconciled with it. Where exactly have you been for all of this? Do you simply ignore these posts and continue to live in your phantasms of ignorance? I suppose so. I suppose your full doctrine is, “Never utter the truth, because the truth hurts my feelings.”? You’re one of those regressive, crowy types that is alarmed and offended by the mention of mental illness, unaware that it is no different than a physical ailment, and it should be treated as such. With respect and reality and a wish for practical, effective treatment. You’re straight out of the Victorian Era.

And in case this idiocy wasn't enough, this segment is additionally woven through with the agony of paradox. You are in fact the one who has forgotten that this is a public forum--or did you immediately forget when you straight-out stated that your post was meant solely and exclusively for nesgirl, and that no one else had the right to reply and share his or her thoughts? If you wanted to privately train nesgirl in your moronic, petulant, childish doctrines of artificial happiness, perhaps you should have PMed her and stricken up a conversation. Did I hurt your feelings? Get over yourself. This is the real world, and it’s time you woke up.

nesgirl wrote: next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it.

I would offer you the same advice. I stand by what I said. You, however, have revealed yourself to be an absolute fool--though I'm quite certain your evident inability to construct grammatically-correct, legible sentences has already revealed that.

R99 wrote: see u around deschianXIX.

Oh. Are you leaving? Good riddance. You bring nothing new, interesting, or exciting to the table. You’re antiquated news, and poor news at that.

deschainXIX wrote:

The mechanism of refutation within a Socratic environment must be foreign to you. Research it for me, would you? Now ... I was providing a refutation of what you "gave her to think of." After my refutation (which you failed to provide a response to), I proceeded to provide a much more sound, rational, and profound solution to crippling, manic cynicism. I advocated the ideals of acceptance and contentment--this aspect of my post you seemed to awkwardly skirt around entirely, apparently finding nothing jeeringly crude and mocking to say about it. Whatever feel-good philosophy you “gave her to think of,” did absolutely nothing to mend her vexed psyche, may I point out. She is also on my side, having found something she related with and connected to in my post, and finding absolutely nothing profound or thought-worthy in yours.

I relate to your situation much more to your situation than I did to his, because I view the world as a very negative place. Besides being badly bullied, when I first developed my mood swings, all my moods were negative, really bad, and very frequent. Eventually I was able to simmer them down so they weren't as extreme as they were back then, however, after 2 years of living through complete negativity and never having any positive emotions, I submitted myself to pessimism. I would always find reasons to hate almost everything in life, my life itself, and why in nearly everything, there was always a negative side to it. I have since then become a full-time pessimist, and want to find everything negative in everything, because I don't believe there is anything truly positive in this world. And no optimist, parent, or religious person is going to convince me of there being anything positive in this world, because I personally don't believe in positivity in the real world. As far as both our incidents, I almost thought no one on this forum could relate to how it hurt to have a cousin brutally murdered like that, and that anger I felt inside like you felt in you, I felt exactly the same way you felt about your cousin being murdered. Unfortunately, what made it worse, like I said, was that there were sleazy lawyers hired, and this guy got a light sentence for murdering my 3 year old cousin, which was only a year and a half in prison, which makes me very furious, especially since he also brain damaged the father (also my cousin), who is now handicapped because of the brain damage he received, and doesn't function as a normal person anymore because of it. This sociopath didn't receive hardly any justice, and will be freed in a year and a half to commit more homicide on others, and this absolutely makes me furious, and hoping the prisoners in that prison have enough sense to kill this child-killing sociopath before he is freed from prison, so this madman doesn't kill anyone else once he's free.

Here we exhaustingly return to your small-minded misconceptions about what a forum is. You contradict yourself so much I don’t even feel compelled to say anything. Nesgirl, on the other hand, was intelligent enough to know there was nothing wrong with what I said. She has publicly accepted, admitted, and apologized again and again about her mental disorder. Here on the forum she is always discussing her mood swings with us, and she is well-known and accepted by everyone, including me. We are reconciled with it.

You know how hard it was to admit that at first, thinking you were going to reject me for it? And actually it is much worse in person than it is on the forums. Much worse when I am running around like a complete maniac during a hyper mood swing and doing daredevil stunts or taunting with mean comments. Or when I am angry, I am typically shouting really nasty things at someone, or in the worst cases when I am provoked, I may fight with someone.
The reason why I am against specific treatments, is because they still lock people up for their issues. And they treat them horribly when they are locked up, and it's worse than being in prison.

And in case this idiocy wasn't enough, this segment is additionally woven through with the agony of paradox. You are in fact the one who has forgotten that this is a public forum--or did you immediately forget when you straight-out stated that your post was meant solely and exclusively for nesgirl, and that no one else had the right to reply and share his or her thoughts? If you wanted to privately train nesgirl in your moronic, petulant, childish doctrines of artificial happiness, perhaps you should have PMed her and stricken up a conversation. Did I hurt your feelings? Get over yourself. This is the real world, and it’s time you woke up.

I've talked to others in my PMs before about some of my Lucid Dreams when I am afraid I am going to be criticized about them like I was called a fake before with my EEG one, so that isn't uncommon for me to do that.

I would offer you the same advice. I stand by what I said. You, however, have revealed yourself to be an absolute fool--though I'm quite certain your evident inability to construct grammatically-correct, legible sentences has already revealed that.

You are calling me a fool? Well that's nothing new out of you considering how many times you've made those remarks to me in the past.

I read everything and I know I dropped the mic and left away.....

But I'm back, baby!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg

Let REM speak for me.

nesgirl wrote: You are calling me a fool? Well that's nothing new out of you considering how many times you've made those remarks to me in the past.

not u nesgirl, deschainXIX called ME a fool. i dont care, even my grand father cant intimidate me. :D

Nor should anyone call you a fool, and you have the choice to either listen or ignore. 1 or 0.

Do or do not, there is no try. (I ripped a bit of Yoda there for you Starwars fans, and was probably wrong in my exact quotation of it, don't hurt me for I am weak, and don't want to get light-sabered with a plastic-light-saber replica, just because of semantics!)

Are we good? Ok. I was just saying that nobody can ever be a fool unless they choose to be, and even those who bully you into being who they want you to be, are worthy of questioning for they too are just a bully as well. Not a physical bully, but a mental one. And this has nothing to do with religion; I'm talking about history text books!

Everything you thought you knew is false. Question that. Do daddy-long-legs have the most poisonous bite, but are harmless because their fangs are so small? Sounds like a great urban legend, but it's wrong! Think about every single urban legend and compare that to the news, and whatever religious leaders spew. You will see the truth. It's not a bad place. It's full of fun and unconditional acceptance for all.

(I chose that urban legend example for a reason... it provokes fear, but for no reason.) ;)

HAGART wrote: I read everything and I know I dropped the mic and left away.....

But I'm back, baby!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg

Let REM speak for me.

I know what that song refers to, and I get it. My pessimist attitude I developed made me let go of previous standards I had as a child a very long time ago, and I replaced them with new ones.

not u nesgirl, deschainXIX called ME a fool. i dont care, even my grand father cant intimidate me.

Look very carefully at who the post is directed to, R99, and you'll realize that he indeed, was directing the insult at me, not you:

nesgirl wrote: next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it.

I would offer you the same advice. I stand by what I said. You, however, have revealed yourself to be an absolute fool--though I'm quite certain your evident inability to construct grammatically-correct, legible sentences has already revealed that.

Odd think is I don't even remember making that post, because I don't abbreviate you with the letter u. I may capitalize the term Lucid Dream because I believe of it being of a very important event, but I don't use symbols like that. Also if I get in a very anxious or angry mood, I may put a word in all caps.

Are we good? Ok. I was just saying that nobody can ever be a fool unless they choose to be, and even those who bully you into being who they want you to be, are worthy of questioning for they too are just a bully as well. Not a physical bully, but a mental one. And this has nothing to do with religion; I'm talking about history text books!

Well I am glad at least someone agrees with me on that one. Because sometimes I am called foolish by the others as well. There was even this one time I was accused of lying because one of my Lucid Dreams sounded way too farfetched to be an official Lucid Dream.

nesgirl wrote: I know what that song refers to, and I get it. My pessimist attitude I developed made me let go of previous standards I had as a child a very long time ago, and I replaced them with new ones.

I'm a pessimist too and this is kind of my anthem. Yet my brother told me it had to do with being gay and coming out. I was like, wait, what? I am only saying I am a lucid dreamer and I've said too much and don't feel like I belong.

That's me in the corner!

I am not gay, but I am losing my religion and don't belong. This is my anthem. If I was gay I wouldn't be afraid to admit it. I'm just venting and there is something wrong with our culture and why can't I be free?

This was the soul thread, but I was just venting and it felt good! (I picked up that mic again....)

Sorry, nesgirl--yes, that was directed at R99. R99 wrote "next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it." It either glitched and said you wrote that, or I made a mistake in writing the code. To clarify: I am pointing all of my accusations at R99.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image

deschainXIX wrote: Sorry, nesgirl--yes, that was directed at R99. R99 wrote "next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it." It either glitched and said you wrote that, or I made a mistake in writing the code. To clarify: I am pointing all of my accusations at R99.

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image

"next time when u make post, keep in mind who is going to read it."-- thats my words, i wonder whats wrong with the quote system. :(