Are You Religious?
Hi! :mrgreen:
One of our fellow members has worked out some statistics about religiosity and irreligiosity in this Forum. I'd like to put her figures to the test. This thread is not intended to spark a debate but feel free to elaborate on your beliefs, or disbelief, here. (My stance has been trenchantly evinced in Dream Science; "Lucid Dreamers and God.") 8-)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3fOXIY3D1Y
I think this would answer your question.
I could be wrong about the 85%, BTW. There may be more than that. It was only an estimate
Secular/agnostic/atheist. :ugeek: :mrgreen:
Anti-theist too! :mrgreen:
@ nesgirl:
Human beings are so nice. That canine has no manners! It must be an atheist! :-D
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I'm a devout Quir.
I always feel rather sad when I see some survey which only address the opposite poles - "Religious" versus "Secular" in regards to a person's philosophical approach to deep questions about the ultimate nature of reality and awareness.
"Religious" usually seems to be associated with some form of organized religion with a set statement of beliefs to be accepted without question by the members of that particular group. And "Secular" beliefs are usually though of as being based totally on rational though, with a likely suspicion of intuitive ways of exploring the nature of consciousness.
I wish these surveys would include a 3rd category, such as - "Spiritual - Non-affiliated". Perhaps other forum members could suggest another term for people who do not attend church, but who are interested in independently exploring the inner nature of consciousness through meditation, dream work, the study of cross-cultural metaphorical themes in mythology, enjoyment of close communion with nature, etc.
Some resources which tend to blend religious/secular boundaries.
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Book - "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway To The Inner Self". In chapters 7, 8 and 9, Robert Waggoner discusses various deeply intuitive, abstract, numinous lucid dreaming experiences, such as awareness of the hidden observer behind dreaming and self-less experiences of inner light.
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Search - "Perennial Wisdom - theosociety.org Scroll down to Science category and see some very intuitive, spiritual-sounding commentary by Albert Einstein - "A Mysterious, A Cosmic Religious Feeling" or Itzhak Bentov - "The Ground Of All Being".
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Also - YouTube _ "Stanislav Grof - Revision And Re-Enchantment of Psychology"
jasmine2
jasmine2 wrote: I always feel rather sad when I see some survey which only address the opposite poles - "Religious" versus "Secular" in regards to a person's philosophical approach to deep questions about the ultimate nature of reality and awareness.
"Religious" usually seems to be associated with some form of organized religion with a set statement of beliefs to be accepted without question by the members of that particular group. And "Secular" beliefs are usually though of as being based totally on rational though, with a likely suspicion of intuitive ways of exploring the nature of consciousness.
I wish these surveys would include a 3rd category, such as - "Spiritual - Non-affiliated". Perhaps other forum members could suggest another term for people who do not attend church, but who are interested in independently exploring the inner nature of consciousness through meditation, dream work, the study of cross-cultural metaphorical themes in mythology, enjoyment of close communion with nature, etc.
Some resources which tend to blend religious/secular boundaries.
-
Book - "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway To The Inner Self". In chapters 7, 8 and 9, Robert Waggoner discusses various deeply intuitive, abstract, numinous lucid dreaming experiences, such as awareness of the hidden observer behind dreaming and self-less experiences of inner light.
-
Search - "Perennial Wisdom - theosociety.org Scroll down to Science category and see some very intuitive, spiritual-sounding commentary by Albert Einstein - "A Mysterious, A Cosmic Religious Feeling" or Itzhak Bentov - "The Ground Of All Being".
-
Also - YouTube _ "Stanislav Grof - Revision And Re-Enchantment of Psychology"
jasmine2 +1
Jasmine, most deists don't attend any places of worship. If you want, you can identify yourself as a pantheist, in the sense that you are in awe of the universe (something many scientists experience anyway), and that you are curious about the nature of consciousness -- one of life's greatest mysteries -- and wish to explore it.
One can be spiritual without being religious. In this case, you are certainly not religious in the sense that I meant here (someone adhering to the precepts of a particular faith). There are many secular people who meditate and seek numinous experiences. If you suspect there might be a Creator but are not sure, you might prefer to be identified as an agnostic. (Many an agnostic snub places of worship, too.)
You might even be a Jewish atheist who is making preparations to celebrate Purim -- which is today, by the way -- but you don't believe in any of the stories in the Old Testament. Purim might just be a good excuse for a family get-together or a party! Is this position religious or secular? It is certainly atheist.
Conversely, atheist priests exist. Even the Pope could be a private atheist! This is why I encourage people to elaborate here. Feel free to exposit your grey areas but you must cast your vote. You know what I mean by my dichotomy above. The question is, which one do you relate to the most?
If your pantheism is Spinozaesque (is this even a word? :mrgreen:) or even Einsteinian, then perhaps you should opt for "secular/atheist/agnostic." If it's more Waggoneresque, then you should go for the other. I've read Robert Waggoner's book. Some of what he espouses is valid, but his suspicions and conclusions belong somewhere between the New Age and Existentialism categories. He entertains the supernatural. Sorry. :-)
And, of course, if you follow crackpot Thomas Campbell, you are in a cult and should go for "religious/theist/deist." Your god is the collective consciousness -- alive and intelligently evolving towards a goal. Buddhism (even its atheistic factions) espouses metaphysics, karma, and realms beyond the physical. Religion. :mrgreen:
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Summerlander wrote:
@ nesgirl:
Human beings are so nice. That canine has no manners! It must be an atheist! :-D
Yeah right. Why not watch this video?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EisZTB4ZQxY
Well there are 3 supposed beliefs I do have: Anti-romance, Animal Activism, and Anti-bullying. The world would be a much better place if we didn't have romance cluttering up society, if we treated animals like our equal companions, stopped killing them for sport, and stopped turning them into furniture, and if we stopped persecuting or bullying others, regardless of religion/non-religion, gender, race disability, etc.
What is Quir, Hagart? :-D
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Summerlander wrote: Hi! :mrgreen:
One of our fellow members has worked out some statistics about religiosity and irreligiosity in this Forum. I'd like to put her figures to the test. This thread is not intended to spark a debate but feel free to elaborate on your beliefs, or disbelief, here. (My stance has been trenchantly evinced in Dream Science; "Lucid Dreamers and God.") 8-)
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I do not know precisely what you mean by the word "religious." I believe it can be resolved to actually three categories in regard to human will. As the human mind can only produce human will, or human behavior, I would take it one believes that one either has a function or not. If one has a function is that function an expression of self or of not self. In the category of not self, is a realm of the environment from fact to fiction. In the category of self is biology and physical fact.
One can use the logical component to make associations, or the analog. However, since language starts by learning how to say what we see, the analog component takes precedence. What one abstracts, if anything, for an analog component is determined by functionality of that mind. If one rests an argument on the logical component, one still can only acquire associations derived from the original analogs.
So, one cannot determine if one is religious or not in regard to the words used, but the analog component of them. For example, to many God means some either undefined mystical power, or an anthropomorphic being with magical power. To me it simply means that Cause and Effect is just another example of the Law of Identity, A = A, or again an image. And we know by the image, or perception. I.e. what we know, we learn by experience. The wisdom is not in the words, but is a function of personal ability.
So, I would interpret the major components of the JCS in terms of a single idea, others cannot, their mind will always be divided against itself. So, in regard to source material such as the JCS (Judeo-Christian Scripture) I can see the truth of it, that someday there would be no one teaching about God, no one teaching mysticism, but that all shall know, i.e. that someday mankind will know in truth and the mind of man will be functional.
So, it is highly unlikely that any so call statistics can be gathered when one is wholly unaware of the analog component which must be associated with the logical in any language. One cannot even count a thing if they do not know what a thing is. So, to me the question resolves to is one asleep, or awake or somewhere in-between? This makes me believe, we are all somewhere in-between or in a mental institution.
@ Desert:
Do try and read everything if you get the time. It is already quite a rich thread. ;-)
@ Philosopher:
So I take it that you didn't vote. Let me help you with that by being more specific. Take a look at humansarefree.com. Do you believe in most, if not all, of its content. Do you believe in an intervening god or deity? Do you believe in divine purpose and intelligent design? Or perhaps just a Creator that just watches it all unfold and never manipulates the fabric of the universe. You might even be a pantheist (not in the Einsteinian or Spinozaesque sense, more like Thomas Campbell).
If so, then you should pick the "religious/theist/deist" option. 8-)
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Summerlander wrote: @ Desert:
Do try and read everything if you get the time. It is already quite a rich thread. ;-)
@ Philosopher:
So I take it that you didn't vote. Let me help you with that by being more specific. Take a look at humansarefree.com. Do you believe in most, if not all, of its content. Do you believe in an intervening god or deity? Do you believe in divine purpose and intelligent design? Or perhaps just a Creator that just watches it all unfold and never manipulates the fabric of the universe. You might even be a pantheist (not in the Einsteinian or Spinozaesque sense, more like Thomas Campbell).
If so, then you should pick the "religious/theist/deist" option. 8-)
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I already know that you don't understand what I have been saying. May I suggest surrender? That website is not exactly what I focused.
I have worked in electronic repair, to engine rebuilding to multi skilled trades areas, and even washing dishes. And one thing I have learned, it don't matter what a thing may think or believe it is, what matters, is that it either has a function or not. If it functions, that is why it is.
Everything that has a function, exists for that function. Aristotle. Notice that this is just another way of saying, A = A.
The function of the human brain, which produces mind, has a well defined biological function, to maintain and promote the life of the body. It does so through language, both branches.
So, language or not, a thing is not different from itself, A = A. One can say this a great variety of ways, such as I AM THAT I AM. Which means, what? No matter how may ways I say it, it seems to escape you.
Show me, if you can, any religion, or social structure based on the identity of a thing with itself in regard to human behavior. You cannot do so. All you see is the denial of it. Maybe that is why you are unfamiliar with my words.
There is a use of the Law if Identity in regard to what is called "closed systems" For example, take any number in arithmetic, and manipulate it from sun up till sun down, what do you get? Just another number. Do the same with common grammar, what do you get? Just more words.
Add to that a complementary relationship. The Mind and Language. If one does not know what their purpose or function is, can they be said to be linguistically competent? If the mind is wholly linguistic by function, and it is, is it functional if it cannot answer the most basic question in regard to a closed system, or the Law of Identity?
Take for example the saying, Judge not unless you would be judged, for whatever judgment you give will be rendered unto you again. That is nothing more than an application of the Law of Identity, and means the same as do unto others as you would have them do unto you, yet how many supposedly bright people take it to be don't judge, when in fact, judgment is the function of the mind? Remarkable? not really, simply dysfunctional.
Judgment is of the Lord. People take it to mean some supernatural being, when in fact, the first principle of language, of law, of creation, is no more than the Law if Identity, which means Judgment is of equality. So, how in the world can anyone claim human equality, when in fact they deny it by their simplicity? How can they claim a belief in anything, when they deny their own function? Your very question demanded a self-referential fallacy. The image, and perception, etc, are biological functions. The reason the JCS is sealed to man's understanding, is the same as the cornerstone that is rejected, perception, which is a biological identity. Someday the eyes of man will be opened, if he survives. There is one point that bothers me, are we sure we are lucid dreaming, when we are not lucid when awake?
Yep. Definately religious and unable to answer, like the majority here, the topic's question. A lengthy reply using atrocious language, and, as usual, casuistry. The world of metaphors is his palpable reality. ^^ :-D
Earth calling Philosopher! :mrgreen:
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Summerlander wrote: Yep. Definately religious and unable to answer, like the majority here, the topic's question. A lengthy reply using atrocious language, and, as usual, casuistry. The world of metaphors is his palpable reality. ^^ :-D
Earth calling Philosopher! :mrgreen:
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Well, when you grow up, maybe you will be not only able to comprehend the simple sentence, but learn some manners as well.
Maybe when you grow up and learn to construct sentences you will be able to understand what I mean by the word "religious." Then you can take baby steps to comprehend my trenchant argument in "Lucid Dreamers and God." ;-)
While you didn't understand the OP, I discerned this much from your glib statements: you support a teleological model and have developed your own delusional map of an exegesis that only makes sense in your head. And while you accuse all of mankind of being protolinguistic, you are really describing yourself.
Just curious: How many here understood what I meant by "religious" and how many fully understood the confusing non-language of Philosopher? :-D
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Summerlander wrote: Science discovers the root cause of problems as well as solutions. It can also expose the noxious nature of certain cultures, such as the one that insists on covering girls with burqas for the sake of expressing modesty. Such mores cause a decrease in the vital vitamin supply, narrowing the pelvis of many Asian girls. Because of this, the poor souls find it harder to give birth. (Not that you care much, right nesgirl? They shouldn't even be having sex in the first place even though -- the hypocrisy (!) -- you are the product of such.) And, of course, some of those girls don't even have to wait long to be impregnated -- after all, what was the prophet Muhammad, with his prepubescent concubines, if not a groomer and a paedophile? The pious certainly look up to him. Good grief, I'm being Islamophobic! :mrgreen:
Most Asian girls shouldn't even become pregnant in the first place. Do you realize how many abortions there are in China, and how many innocent baby girls are mercilessly slaughtered each year? Also I don't ever recall there
Perhaps you would now like to know that cloudy places such as Britain show higher rates of lung and bowel cancer. Where is the solar radiation we need? Summerlander could be at risk but hopefully the rats will be safe. Is that fair now, nesgirl? Am I foregrounding facts, or have I, like you just admitted to me in replying to my question about your equivocal position on religion, decided to "find reasons to argue against them"? And who has control over their moods anyway?
I am not discussing religion anymore, because I got caught discussing it and I don't want to get expelled. However I will discuss history with you if you wish. The reason why females were treated like that in ancient history was this: females were inferior back in history, and were often treated almost as inferior as your race was. Females were considered property by many countries (including the USA), and oftentimes, guys could purchase them, and age wasn't an issue back then. Some countries did practice in polygamy, while some people themselves practiced in it, and there was nothing that could stop them....unless they stole those females from the government, which could gain custody of a female once their husband died, and they could sell that female and her children at an auction. Females were not allowed to go to school, not allowed to do almost anything in public, and their only purpose of even existing in history was to be the house slave for a guy. The guy was free to do what he wanted with her, and most often, she would serve on him hand and foot, do all the chores, bring food to him (sometimes bringing food to the mouth), massage him, and take care of the kids. The guy in return could beat her if he wanted to like a poor animal, and he could do all sorts of mean things to her. While not all guys were that mean, many were. If a female ever rebelled against her husband or against the community, usually the penalty was capital punishment.
[quote[As for selective breeding and the preservation of genes: nothing nature hasn't done before on its own. Poor lions when a pack of hienas steal the carcass of the antelope they just killed, right? All that hunting energy...[/quote] Quite often the opposite can happen. Also if their cubs are around when they are trying to eat, they won't just be defending the meal, as if they lose the meal, sometimes in the process, the hyenas will also eat their cubs. However, if there are several male lions in the area, they will often kill some of these hyenas, and they will retreat (many predators know not to mess with these guys, it only takes 2 of them to take down a buffalo, whereas it takes about 5 female lions to take down a buffalo, and sometimes a female gets killed in the process), although to the dismay of the females and cubs, they will probably hog the entire antelope to themselves (yes that really happens, usually the first kill, the males hog to themselves).
You may have autism in common with some of the greats, by the way, but do you have their ingenuity? Because some of the greats were not autistic and thus it can be logically inferred that such behavioural absorptions do not necessarily make a genius. This is the difference between me and you, nesgirl: you look up to people afflicted with the same scourges as yourself; I admire people who have something to teach, something other than what I already know.
Did I ever mention I have autism? I only mentioned I respect him because he because something great despite having a mental weakness. Many people with different mental afflictions look up to him because of it. I really want to do something great despite the fact I have problems with my mood. I don't want to let my mood issues stop me from doing something great in the future. This is why I look up to him, because I want to believe I can accomplish something despite having a weakness. Beethoven and Mozart would be more among my lines of doing something really great with their talents and having my weakness (mood swings), although they aren't quite as popular as Einstein.
And kindness isn't something that can only be taught by religion either. This is the ultimate insult to secularists and atheists alike. Confucius thought of rules of thumb and propriety way before the monotheisms were even thought about and formed to hijack them. Morality (minus psychosis) is innate in all of us. People shouldn't have to be taught (like little brats) to be kind and respect one another. It should happen by their own accord -- and it does, as many well-behaved atheists and secularists can attest to -- because we are social beings who have long worked out that our survival odds are greater if we stick together. Evolution has led us down the path of, generally speaking, empathy, cooperation, and camaraderie. We've had this even when we endured our tribal wars, and world wars, and our experience will hopefully lead us to be wiser and more cosmopolitan. Now...
I know this, but I don't see it happen nearly as often as it should. I have only seen a few religions pitch in for the fact of the matter anyways. Besides the fact, most of the world has the attitude of survival of the fittest, and unfortunately did you know if a poor person has an emergency, like if someone is hurt, sometimes they are hung up on, because they don't want to deal with someone who is poor? It makes me feel bad most of the community out there doesn't want to feed the starving people out there, doesn't care about people who are homeless, doesn't care about abusive behaviors (75% of various assault attacks despite being illegal people get away with) and most of all, allows all sorts of animal abusive behavior to go on (they used to be really good about that and really care for the animals and animal abuse used to be illegal, now the humane society and Peta really struggle against all forms of animal abuse, because it is happening WAY more often than necessary. Fur stores and collecting are becoming a huge trend which we are desperately trying to have shut down, which is why I referred to you earlier as disgusting, because wearing fur is gross).
I know of a few scientific studies that were cruel and horrific, but it gives me hope in humanity when I know that an overwhelming percent of the population are against it. They just need to be exposed. Religion too has a few bad apples, but an overwhelming number of the population are actually nice, considerate people when you get to know them.
I know this as well, and I wish some people would actually come to realize that some forms of science are very cruel if done in the wrong way. Some of these animals have gone through extreme amounts of suffering, and they have done some of these experiments on people as well.
Well, I think this poll has served its purpose. Congrats, nesgirl. The result is close enough to your estimation. 8-)
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Summerlander wrote: Well, I think this poll has served its purpose. Congrats, nesgirl. The result is close enough to your estimation. 8-)
See and what did I tell you? I am actually very good at average and estimation, and judging by the users who left, and the users who were remaining, I calculated my results using my math skills, and was able to come up with an exact estimation. Did you know that 65% of the world's population is Agnostic/Atheist/Says religion is none of your business? I calculated my own numbers, and this is what I found. You probably didn't know this, did you.
No, I didn't. Well done. 8-)
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I am Muslim :)
Salam Pika
Walaikum-assalam :D
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Brought up as a Muslim or convert, Pika? Nesgirl, you are statistically wrong after all! :-D
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Brought up :)
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Would it be fair to say that if you had been brought up to be a Christian you'd probably be one today?
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I think so. Probably the reason why I consider myself lucky to be Muslim :D
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Pika, nice to meet you.
Hold tight..
what?!
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Pika? wrote: what?!
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I said "nice to meet you".
what did u mean by ''hold tight''?
Btw nice to meet you too!!!!
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Pika? wrote: what did u mean by ''hold tight''?
Btw nice to meet you too!!!!
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You will find out, don't be impatient. Just make sure that you spend enough time here.
why is being Muslim lucky? What do you perceive to be a privilege in Islam? :-)
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He probably means that he is lucky in that he will enjoy the Elysian afterlife for having been born to the one true religion.
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Here it comes.. :D
Ok, I smell a religious argument coming.....:(
To be honest, I am ill equipped with knowledge for a religious debate. I know the bad image of Islam in the modern times. But I do believe in the fundamentals of Islam which is to believe in Allah, strive to be a better person and help others. Basically, the Islamic lifestyle is peaceful and virtuous, thats why I consider myself lucky to be a Muslim and try to be a better one every way possible.
I know very well you guys dont agree with me. Im only 18, i hardly have enough knowledge to argue, my big exam starts from april and I am seeing myself being doomed. So im not really in a position to defend.
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Nice input, as ever, DesertExplorer. :D
I find myself unable to do that, Pika?, hold an uninformed and indefensible opinion. I myself have only existed for sixteen years, and I believe that informing oneself is one of the only noble things we can do, as consciousnesses graced with ratiocination. Ignorance is something to be raged at, not succumbed to. ;)
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Rage is a bad thing, Deschain. Be careful with that..
deschainXIX wrote: Nice input, as ever, DesertExplorer. :D
I find myself unable to do that, Pika?, hold an uninformed and indefensible opinion. I myself have only existed for sixteen years, and I believe that informing oneself is one of the only noble things we can do, as consciousnesses graced with ratiocination. Ignorance is something to be raged at, not succumbed to. ;)
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Ok i didn't say that my religion is indefensible, its just that I cant defend it. I try to acquire knowledge as much as possible, be it religion, science or other things. Its true that I don't have enough knowledge to defend, but I do have enough knowledge to practice, apply the religion in my life.
I just learnt that most of the people here are atheists therefore pro at bashing religions, so I'm just gonna walk away......I have neither the intention nor the capability to argue with you guys. So lets just drop it, eh? Its a lucid dreaming site after all, we have the same goals, we shouldn't create differences among us just because we hold different religious views, should we???
Btw if you really want to flex your arguing muscles, then email Zakir Naik or William Campbell or whatever..........unlike me they do have the experience! :D
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I hope you stay, Pika. You seem like a nice person. :)
Don't get us unbelievers wrong, Pika. We understand you very well. Many of us have been there. But those who go one step further, ask questions, explore scripture, value evidence, and try to make sense of things end up renouncing faith and become sceptical.
We are only trying to raise awareness of the excellent reasons why we don't believe and have adopted the secular life. One can find happiness, fulfilment and virtue in secularism, too. And we do all of this without having to worry about what food to eat, the right way to make love, and praying several times a day. We don't worry about a god watching let alone trying to appease him. Why? Because we have seen no evidence that there is such an entity.
But that's just us... :-)
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Np summerland. You guys actually deserve creds for atleast questioning that if your belief is right or wrong, not like the rest of the people who blindly follow the religion of their ancestors (kinda like me xD) without judging them from a neutral stance.
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Well, I don't know if we really deserve credit for disbelieving. Atheism or agnosticism isn't anything new. Disbelief in God doesn't even equate with Darwinism or Marxism as some people think (not you). There are people who accept Darwinian evolution but still believe in a Creator. There are religious communists, too.
Atheism probably precedes the Vedas in the Orient. I would also contend that characters such as Socrates, Lucretius and Epicurus were already doubting Thomases for many of the conventional ideas of their time. Demanding evidence isn't anything new.
And believe me when I say that if you provided me with concrete evidence that the Quran is the unalterable word of God, and that Islam is the final solution/revelation, I would have no choice but to accept it. (Although I wonder what kind of evidence that would be...)
And if it was proved, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that there really is a God, I wouldn't deem it worthy of worship considering that no theodicy in the world can justify an infinitely merciful and benevolent divinity in the face of evil or even the concept of eternal damnation. For a self-proclaimed omnipotent lord, God seems powerless to fix the psychopath or to persuade the sceptic - opting to condemn them, instead, for all eternity according to the text.
I'd soon be discussing with a revolutionary Satan on the most effective way to overthrow the celestial dictatorship. God would be the Czar, Satan Lenin, and we would be the Bolsheviks. :mrgreen:
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Agnosticism has not anything to do with disbelieving and Atheism. So, nothing to do with some of you guys, too. I'm just saying..
It was wrong from the start to make only two choices in the poll, Summer.
There is a schism, though, however much we would like to deny it (we don't like to think of ourselves as simple and definable with a single word). There is a fundamental dichotomy between the faithful and the pragmatic.
deschainXIX wrote: There is a schism, though, however much we would like to deny it (we don't like to think of ourselves as simple and definable with a single word). There is a fundamental dichotomy between the faithful and the pragmatic.
That's why I can easily understand you. You use words with Greek origin all the time.. :P
Actually, agnosticism has two things in common with atheism: the recognition of the absence of evidence for the existence of God and a stance quite apart from organised religion. ;-)
The atheist will say God is as probable as folkloric or mythical beings such as fairies and unicorns, therefore the atheistic argument questions the need for one to believe in that which has not been demonstrated to exist. 8-)
The agnostic takes a softer approach by saying that he or she is not sure. Typically, agnostics are neutral in that they claim to neither believe nor disbelieve (sometimes stating that the answer is unknowable), and are thus liable to fall for the ridiculous Pascal's wager in a bid to cover themselves in case it's true. :-)
So I really don't see why it was wrong to have only two choices in this poll when the goal was to test nesgirl's statistics anyway. It's very simple: one option covers religious traditions and belief in supernatural beings such as gods, deities, angels and demons; the other is secular and includes doubt, uncertainty, disbelief, and scepticism.
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No, that is incorrect. Atheism supports the idea that there is no God, while Agnosticism supports the idea that we have not the means to prove the theory of a deity's existence or nonexistence. They have nothing in common, except what you said secondly. So, it's not about a safe bet in the case Agnostics are wrong. It's just that they admit that they cannot know, while Atheists declare that they know, which they cannot back up with evidence other than saying that there is no evidence in the opposite field (religion).
That's why I didn't vote. But, your purpose was more personal, so I cannot complain.
I'm going to make a poll "Are you crazy?" Hehehehe.... That should be real FUN! Prepare yourselves. :D
But tomorrow now.
I feel really sleepy..
Atheism doesn't "declare" anything. It's not a declaration, it is the negation of a declaration. It has no tenets, no systems, nothing to say about anything. Atheism is merely this: Those who claim that there are deities have no ground or right to such a claim. It is merely a negation.
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I don't know if you read it, nesgirl, but in the "Personality Thread", I suggested you stay away from those who upset you.
There's a nifty feature on this forum that allows you to issue your own 'restraining order'. Just go to the User Control Panel (by clicking on your name in the upper right), click on the [Friends & Foes] tab, [Manage Foes], and add Summerlander and DeschainXIX to your list. All their posts will appear like this:
This post was made by [User Name] who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.
As long as you don't click, "Display this post", you can live peacefully on this forum and pretend they don't exist. It's essentially like kicking them off the forum which I'm sure you'd love to do.
Bravo, Hagart, bravo!!! :-D ^^^
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But then she'd have two less people to complain to! :o :P (The problem, of course, is that we give her more attention than she deserves, and that is precisely what she wants.)
I'm more or less reconciled with the fact that you can't reason with someone so at home with psychosis. At the very least, nesgirl, please, please, start proofreading your fatuous little posts before submitting them, so that they're not so rhetorically painful to read.
Also--and this one really had me laughing, both for its obscenely misconstructing nature and its self-paradoxical one--lacking a sufficient education doesn't make someone, as you say rather misguidedly, "retarded." Lacking an education doesn't make a person have a neurologically-depressing disorder. (And, I'll anticipate your next rant with a single sentence: Depression does not mean "sadness," nesgirl.)
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HAGART wrote: I don't know if you read it, nesgirl, but in the "Personality Thread", I suggested you stay away from those who upset you.
There's a nifty feature on this forum that allows you to issue your own 'restraining order'. Just go to the User Control Panel (by clicking on your name in the upper right), click on the [Friends & Foes] tab, [Manage Foes], and add Summerlander and DeschainXIX to your list. All their posts will appear like this:
This post was made by [User Name] who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.
As long as you don't click, "Display this post", you can live peacefully on this forum and pretend they don't exist. It's essentially like kicking them off the forum which I'm sure you'd love to do.
I tried blocking one of them before, I really did, however, you CANNOT block them from PMing you unfortunately, and one of them came and started flaming me before in my PMs.
I keep trying to have Peter ban me, but nothing. I am wondering... is there only one true permanent way out? Is there ever only going to be that only one true way out of being bullied?
Also--and this one really had me laughing, both for its obscenely misconstructing nature and its self-paradoxical one--lacking a sufficient education doesn't make someone, as you say rather misguidedly, "retarded." Lacking an education doesn't make a person have a neurologically-depressing disorder. (And, I'll anticipate your next rant with a single sentence: Depression does not mean "sadness," nesgirl.)
I would rather not have you 2 to complain at at all if I could help it. This is what you make me feel like doing nearly every time I talk to you (and most of those if you could not see were intentional): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4A_18kf4PY
Some people are as you say "Retarded" and I do feel like you are implying I am that. Also some people who are retarded are capable of typing on the computer, in case you didn't know this. I knew a few of them who could. Peter Griffin is a good example of someone who is retarded (his IQ was tested and it clearly showed he was) as is his son. So is Patrick Star. All of them were at least capable of doing something. Retarded usually means the IQ is >80 or lower, however it doesn't always mean that the IQ is extremely low like in many of the handicapped people. Dopey in Snow White for example was still capable after all of mining for Diamonds. Ed in the Lion King was still capable of hunting, and still had some knowledge of his own leader betraying him in the end. Depression doesn't mean sadness obviously, however the person doesn't have any trace of happiness in their lives, and depression drains the the person's feel good trait so badly that they aren't going to feel nor believe in happiness. Take a look at Squidward from Spongebob. He most often suffers from severe depression and is almost never seen content in those episodes. While I don't see him crying in many episodes, he is usually very down, miserable, and grumpy. Oh yes, and in that one episode, when Spongebob asks Squidward if he has a "happy memory" it clearly shows squidward in the darkest depression stages, and implies several times Squidward thinking about killing himself, like when he hangs a rope up, and when he sticks his head in the oven.
TV is not reality. (Even Reality TV is fake.) You can't use fictitious characters and stories, created by man, to justify your reasoning. Just like the Bible. ;)
PM's are tempting to read, but you have the power to ignore.
Nobody's putting a gun to your head, forcing you to be here. You're here because you want to be. Frankly, I think you're a glutton for punishment and love to argue with Summerlander and DeschainXIX for some weird reason. Without them, you'd probably find someone else to fill the void and become your nemesis. It's like you need one in your life at all times. You enjoy depression and self-loathing over happiness as you've admitted, and you're bringing it upon yourself.
Through your own actions you can stop all the quarreling that upsets you, and have a more positive experience here on the forum, and everyday in your own life.
HAGART wrote: TV is not reality. (Even Reality TV is fake.) You can't use fictitious characters and stories, created by man, to justify your reasoning. Just like the Bible. ;)
PM's are tempting to read, but you have the power to ignore.
Nobody's putting a gun to your head, forcing you to be here. You're here because you want to be. Frankly, I think you're a glutton for punishment and love to argue with Summerlander and DeschainXIX for some weird reason. Without them, you'd probably find someone else to fill the void and become your nemesis. It's like you need one in your life at all times. You enjoy depression and self-loathing over happiness as you've admitted, and you're bringing it upon yourself.
Through your own actions you can stop all the quarreling that upsets you, and have a more positive experience here on the forum, and everyday in your own life.
No actually I wanted to originally be here to talk about my Lucid Dreams. I wanted some place people wouldn't bash me for ONCE in my life about it to talk about my Lucid Dreams, because even when I went to that Lucid Dreaming club and talked about them, they were criticizing me, and they banned me for talking about them. I have been banned from several locations for talking about them, and even my own brother calls me delusional for talking about them, and many of my own family members think I am crazy. BUT what do I get when I start talking about my unique experiences I have had with my Lucid Dreams? 2 users who are exactly like my brother and start calling me delusional over a couple of my Lucid Dream, even to the point of even saying I never even had them. So now I don't even feel comfortable talking about many of my Lucid Dreams anymore, because I am afraid of being referred to as either a liar or delusional again, and this is a LUCID DREAM website. Do you even understand how I am even feeling at this point when I cannot even post my own Lucid Dreams without the fear of being criticized or bullied and people accusing me of lying? This is why I haven't been posting anywhere else lately very much, for fear of criticism.
Often I don't start the argument unless someone really says something to tick me off (like says they enjoy drowning dogs or their neighbor enjoys it, or kills animals for their fur). And I don't want a nemesis in the least, although I tend to get persecuted by them anyways.
You want to know the real reason why I prefer depression? Because I cannot control my mood swings. And I don't have a positive mood. I have a hyper mood, but I can be a real @#$# when I get into that mood, much like I can when I am in an angry mood. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NPc08-BWvg Yes and this cartoon only shows part of how bad I can get during that mood. And yes I do have that awful looking face on. I know you think mood swings cannot get THAT bad, but how about losing enough judgment during one because you are so drugged that you are telling farfetched tales during one or believe you can accomplish out of reach goals? Out of risk of attempting to avoid that really horrible mood swing and attempting to keep at least part of my sanity on, I prefer being depressed and pessimistic.
I would prefer not to live in this world, and I mean really I would prefer not to live in this world, however, it is so difficult to escape from this world for good. And failure to escape from it is often very embarrassing when you get caught. If only they made it so quick and easy like they do for the animals.
Sorry to bring you back to reality yet again, nesgirl, but spreading lies about people actually is a form of bullying. Quote me exactly from one place where you think I intentionally made you paranoid to share your lucid dreams. I want the exact quote. Go ahead and find one for Summerlander, too, while you're at it.
We're waiting...
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http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15419&start=30
This thread right here. Where I was talking about my Lucid Dream I had during the EEG and I talked about having a Lucid Dream during a colonoscopy. You were saying it was impossible, and I was delusional in thinking I was even having Lucid Dreams during those times. I never implied once of anything paranormal BTW. I just wanted say I was Lucid Dreaming during those times I was KO'd. And you had to go and say I was delusional because I said I was Lucid Dreaming during that time.
BTW, I am not the one spreading lies, you were the ones who were picking on me in that thread when I was only trying to talking about my Lucid Dream, because I thought maybe I'd look into it more. I wasn't looking to be called delusional.
Are you illiterate? "Exact quote."
(We all know you can't provide a single one. I'm just waiting for you to say it.)
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I know you were picking on me in that thread. I think I would rather hang on the tree than deal with your criticism anymore. Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea, just hanging on the tree, no longer having to deal with life ever again, nor your criticism again.
I don't think it's bullying, nesgirl, but if you feel paranoid, it's hardly his fault. I think it was more a case of deschainXIX correcting you and you didn't like it. There is nothing shameful about being wrong and have others point that out. In fact, it is admirable when people concede. I think you equate standing corrected with being humiliated. Only people who think they are perfect feel their egos doubly bruised when opposed. You will never be happy that way, nesgirl. For instance, stop thinking that you are better than everyone else because you are asexual...allegedly... :mrgreen:
By the way, I speak for myself when I say that I have never PMd you. I would also advise you to stop making things up about people or twisting what they say. You've tried to besmirch me but it backfired when Hagart fetched the relevant quotes. And now you can't provide one for deschainXIX. You are only making yourself look bad! :-o
PS. I've started reading "The Missionary Position" by Christopher Hitchens! :mrgreen:
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The problem is not because we are romantics and like sex, but because we choose to say our opinions.
Both habits can be catastrophic some times for ourselves and the others.
Do not give attention. I'm just messing around.. :P
The problem is not expressing our opinions. The problem is people who abhor the truth and are so egoistically sensitive that they take offence at the most trivial verbalism. :-)
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Summerlander wrote: I don't think it's bullying, nesgirl, but if you feel paranoid, it's hardly his fault. I think it was more a case of deschainXIX correcting you and you didn't like it. There is nothing shameful about being wrong and have others point that out. In fact, it is admirable when people concede. I think you equate standing corrected with being humiliated. Only people who think they are perfect feel their egos doubly bruised when opposed. You will never be happy that way, nesgirl. For instance, stop thinking that you are better than everyone else because you are asexual...allegedly...
By the way, I speak for myself when I say that I have never PMd you. I would also advise you to stop making things up about people or twisting what they say. You've tried to besmirch me but it backfired when Hagart fetched the relevant quotes. And now you can't provide one for deschainXIX. You are only making yourself look bad!
PS. I've started reading "The Missionary Position" by Christopher Hitchens!
I need to read that one. His "god Is Not Great" (intentional error; Hitch would have wanted it :D ) made him one of my favorite writers. I'm going to read the collection of writings leading up to his death called "Mortality." I can think of few people who I would like to hear speak of death more than the perceptive and lucid Hitchens.
For the sake of total solidarity (I think that everyone here is competent enough to know that no one is bullying nesgirl), and in case anyone is interested, here is the "flaming," "bullying" PM exchange between nesgirl and myself a while back. Please note that I finally went over the edge when nesgirl began telling new users in their Introductory Threads that they should not post their lucid dreams for fear of Summerlander's and my criticism (quite literally scaring potential newcomers away in the most translucent and libelous fashion: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15624&hilit=2+users)--but I didn't have the heart to confront her in front of everyone.
PM SUBJECT: SHOW ME
DESCHAIN: Okay, nesgirl. I'm tired of this recurring nonsense of yours. I've asked you before (and you utterly ignored my request), but I suppose I will try again: Give me a direct link and quotation of every single incident in which you felt persecuted and accused of lying by myself or Summerlander or anyone else. Show me exactly where that happened. Right now. Oh, wait. There is none. Either stop spreading poisonously misconceived libel and throwing false accusations and terrorizing new users with your deluded, apocalyptic warnings of receiving criticism for sharing lucid dreams or show me exactly where anyone has done that to you so we can make strides toward lucidity and reconciliation.
NESGIRL: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15419&start=40
You were really criticizing me in THIS thread. And in the Religion Islamic crisis about my Lucid Dreaming while unconscious during the EEG. And you did practically accuse me of faking it, saying there was NO WAY I could have been doing such, because you said people cannot Lucid Dream during that time. And because you made it look like from your scientific studies I was lying, I don't feel comfortable sharing my Lucid Dreams anymore (I wasn't trying to prove anything, I was having a Lucid Dream for fun). Other people have had unusual Lucid Dreams I have heard from in some situations that might not be to your liking that you might criticize them for as well.
Oh and do not reply to me and bash me. Because if you do, I will block you, and I will block the PM system. I have the ability to do so.
DESCHAIN: I did not criticize you in any of the threads you provided. [Aside: This is not totally accurate, of course; I was trying to keep nesgirl in the conversation. Note, however, that I did not accuse her of lying about lucid dreaming in the threads mentioned.]
NESGIRL: You and Summer were criticizing me Lucid Dreaming during the EEG. You were saying that it was impossible, and that I was faking it, because it cannot happen during that time. I already get that enough from my brother without you 2 saying things like that. I wasn't trying to prove the supernatural in ANYTHING whatsoever. I just thought that no matter what is going on in your brain (provided you aren't 100% dead), it would be nice to be able to get away from reality for some people, and escape from reality. You and science just had to make a big deal about it.
DESCHAIN: Nope. Summer and I did nothing of the sort. I have no absolutely idea what you're talking about. Sorry. I have never said anything at all to make you feel uncomfortable sharing lucid dreams and warning away new users. :?:
NESGIRL: I remember you, Summer, and I got into an argument over Lucid Dreaming while unconscious before, and I was using my Lucid Dream as an example. It made me feel VERY uncomfortable before. I was even talking to Buildit and to Peter all about it a few months ago about how you 2 were making me feel very uncomfortable about mentioning my Lucid Dreams, because you were saying Lucid Dreaming while unconscious was impossible, and that I couldn't have been doing so during my EEG. I remember that from a couple of months ago. I am NOT kidding
I am not warning away new users. I am just telling them not to mention specific things around the 2 of you. The things I meant about them "not mentioning" that I have talked with users about in the past were probability Lucid Dreams (like for example, back when I had my unconscious EEG, when you were criticizing me about it, and didn't believe it was an actual EEG, I was going to say I matched a Magazine picture in the Lucid Dream, then confirmation biased it in reality, but you did NOT give me that chance), freaky stories, and also dreaming while they were declared unconscious, etc. I think you would have had quite the argument with those users like you did with me. I am not warning them about posting Lucid Dreams. I am concerned about them posting Lucid Dreams. I am concerned about them posting Lucid Dreams that sound like something that is "flame bait" to you and to Summer, like my Unconscious EEG Lucid Dreams were to you 2.
See and I have my own scientific theories on Unconscious Lucid Dreaming, which I discussed with buildit before, which I doubt you and Summer would be open on. See I personally believe why 20% people can dream/Lucid Dream while unconscious/nearly dead is because there is in fact a tiny portion of the brain still at work we don't know about. Also I studied up on these experiences, and on DMT trips, and found both of which are similar. Also I know the brain releases DMT while we sleep. If that is the case, then the brain in an unconscious scenario thinking it is in a pinch must release a huge amount of DMT. In other words, I have a theory that the person who is unconscious may very well be having a naturally induced drug trip. Which is why some of these experiences during unconsciousness sound so interesting. However as to why people can dream while unconscious, some people's brains may have evolved to enable them to do that, like how some buildings have that emergency light comes on in a few buildings during a black out. I don't see anything supernatural about people dreaming while unconscious, I just see it as an emergency switch the body switches on, as well as a DMT release is also triggered, making it even more crazy. I have done enough studying to be able to come up with a plausible theory on why people dream while unconscious, and it doesn't even sound supernatural at all. This is why I believe I was able to dream while unconscious during the EEG and while some people dream during their surgeries. Think about this for a minute, and my theory makes sense in a lot of ways.
DESCHAIN: I agree that you can dream whilst unconscious. Indeed, that's where all dreams take place, in the realm of the subconscious. You're seeing in black-and-white, buying into the false dichotomy of consciousness...
I stopped trying to have serious discussion with you a long time ago, though. You've proven yourself incapable of such time and time again. Your irrationality and psychosis have totally severed you from reality. I would prescribe meditation in an attempt to achieve self-transcendence and a brief hiatus from lucid dreaming to get a slightly firmer grip on reality. :mrgreen:
Anyway...
Just stop telling people they can't post their lucid dreams.
It's vicious and it's bullying and it's bullshit, and you know it. Hopefully you've begun to realize this truth by observing your own failure (yet again) to show me exactly when and where I was making people uncomfortable in sharing their lucid dreams. I'm just trying to get you to wake up and stop poisoning the forum with your libel. :)
You may now block me and enforce your hatred of the concept of freedom of speech. I don't want to talk to you any longer than I have to. I just want you to stop terrorizing people with your nonsense and delusions, and also to stop spreading evil gossip about me and Summerlander. :D
NESGIRL: I can't stop Lucid Dreaming. I have been Lucid Dreaming since I was 3. It has been a part of my life since as long as I can remember. But you said I can't Lucid Dream when the EEG read me unconscious, did you not??? And unfortunately I've always seen in black and white, no medication can help with that. I always see things like that. I try to have very serious discussions with you about several different things numerous times. I do know numerous things about math and science, as I have said several times. How else would I have known about the laws of probability or asexual reproduction?? I know many things, as I have studied math and science many times. It is just that since they have discovered new and very depressing things in quantum physics, realism, and reality, science and reality have begun to depress me...since middle school. And while I try to come up with very interesting theories time and time again, I always fail. My Multimedia professor said something about me that is probably true, that with theories, multimedia, and debating, I am just doomed to fail. Truly I don't
I know what you said, you said what I was doing was impossible, because the EEG read me unconscious and it was impossible for me to be to be dreaming then because of it. Both you and Summerland said that.
DESCHAIN: *Like I said, I do not wish to talk to you any longer than I have to. *
END OF PM EXCHANGE
Now, I don't really care about you, nesgirl. And I have no idea why you care about me to the point that you would threaten suicide over this. But I've been pouring over the threads mentioned and I can't find an instance like the one you're describing. Multiple times have I called on you to quote me, but you never have.
This is the summation of all I have to say about this.
Summerlander wrote: I don't think it's bullying, nesgirl, but if you feel paranoid, it's hardly his fault. I think it was more a case of deschainXIX correcting you and you didn't like it. There is nothing shameful about being wrong and have others point that out. In fact, it is admirable when people concede. I think you equate standing corrected with being humiliated. Only people who think they are perfect feel their egos doubly bruised when opposed. You will never be happy that way, nesgirl. For instance, stop thinking that you are better than everyone else because you are asexual...allegedly... :mrgreen:
By the way, I speak for myself when I say that I have never PMd you. I would also advise you to stop making things up about people or twisting what they say. You've tried to besmirch me but it backfired when Hagart fetched the relevant quotes. And now you can't provide one for deschainXIX. You are only making yourself look bad! :-o
PS. I've started reading "The Missionary Position" by Christopher Hitchens! :mrgreen:
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Oh no, you 2 were actually telling me my EEG Lucid Dream was impossible in that thread, and that it was scientifically impossible to even have a Lucid Dream during the incident, implying I didn't even have a Lucid Dream during that time. That wasn't cool.
Maybe my brother was right that would mean. Because he said the same thing you did. Then that means....if he's right and I cannot Lucid Dream, then there is nothing left in this horrible world. Death is the only answer.
And BTW Deschain, why do I care what you think about my decision (besides, you would probably laugh as soon as I succeeded anyways, and you would turn it into one of your comedies to watch every night)? Why do I care what anyone thinks about my decision on this? It is my life, my choice. I think with you criticizing me all the time, you have no right to attempt to sway my decision first of all, and second of all, I did try to make my own decisions back in middle school. However now think about this for a second, if I ceased to exist, why not think about how much of a better place the universe would end up being? Sometimes when a very hated person dies, the universe is a whole lot better off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc6RruVoaYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkq7WZTzkLQ
I've tried using quotes as evidence before. Good luck with that!
I like nesgirl though. I have a soft spot and want to help. She denies she ever needs it though and I feel like Ernie talking to Oscar the Grouch. I don't even know why I keep trying.
Is there even a glimmer of a smile in that black hole that I can possibly reach? I don't know.
I should stop dreaming with my stupid Hagartist ideology shouldn't I?
The only help I'd get from those 2 is they'd bind me up, and escort me to the psych ward themselves. Which if they did that, I know of numerous ways to die in the psych ward.
I also don't think at this point anyone wants to help. Considering Summer even just said that he wants me to admit I was wrong about even having a Lucid Dream during the EEG because he and Deschain proved it against me because I had an ego and everything, this says everything right there.
I never want to talk about my Lucid Dreams on here again, because then Summer and Deschain will just use their science talk to prove I didn't even have Lucid Dreams at all, exactly like my brother does nearly all the time. And then because of this, they will tell me exactly what my brother tells me all the time, saying I haven't given him evidence I can Lucid Dream, and that I am delusional.
Actually there have only ever been a few whom I have trusted in my life. These few had the ability to Lucid Dream, and....well I am NOT going to tell you because you'll just accuse me of lying again.
Edit I saw that venting out of you Hagart you made earlier. Look even most of my family knows how to do that much. It's just how I am. Each Spring, I go through SAD, get extra moody, depressed, and pessimistic, and there isn't really much anyone can do about that. Just how I react to the change in the seasons. Oh and well at least you know to erase your posts before the dogman sees them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxv9AMQ6WM
I remember the palaver about lucid dreaming whilst unconscious. I tried to point out to nesgirl, that, logically, if one experiences and remembers something, one was most definitely conscious, not unconscious. I believe she used the wrong word and this is really a case of her not being able to take constructive (sic) criticism. (Notice how she first said that we "bully" and then claimed that we kept "criticising" her.)
I believe nesgirl was referring to consciousness sometimes emerging in NREM or even delta sleep. Such states do not necessarily spell out unconsciousness--often thought-like dreams are possible and spindles of activity can occur during them in the brain. Like deschainXIX said, it's not black and white, and, after all, what is lucid dreaming if not the CONSCIOUS viewing of mental "material" that would have otherwise remained in unconsciousness? 8-)
Let's remember that NDEs allegedly take place when a patient is pronounced "clinically dead" (not really dead, just no cerebral activity can be measured at the hospital, but in a lab it would be a different story). It is important to remember that such conscious experiences have most likely emerged, not when the brain had reduced activity, but just as the individual was coming to and thus cerebral activity rising. (Later, though, consciousness is mistakenly said to have occurred when the brain was "dead" by New Age enthusiasts.)
So, yeah, nesgirl was wrong (as she often is) ab initio. :mrgreen:
By the way, deschainXIX, "Mortality" is scary, sad, interesting, and at times funny. "Hitch-22," which precedes it, is like a great adventure. Enjoy the Hitch! ;-)
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If I were truly unconscious and I did experience some sort of time gap like you said, I would have felt it (I have fainted numerous times in my life from hypotension) and I would have probably puked in that poor lab guy's trash can like the last time. Because my body doesn't do very well when "violated" while I am unconscious, so I do well to avoid being violated while unconscious.
I kind of did that the colonoscopy, so I will have to consider I was unconscious during that, since I actually puked after that....however, I do have to consider I was keeping track of time somehow, because in many of my Lucid Dreams, I have the ability to do so. This was a probability Lucid Dream, as I was telling about the live video they were recording.
And you see, this is why I don't like talking about my Lucid Dreams around you anymore. AND you'll never hear a Lucid Dream out of me again, because then it'll turn into a theory of you trying to stroke your stupid ego again. Oh and BTW, there wasn't any consciousness at all until the end during the EEG, when I WOKE UP @#$#@ (as in I went straight from unconsciousness to complete waking consciousness, like as in if a person were to pass out and then wake up). So you are either going to have to conclude in this case I am A. Delusional and never had a Lucid Dream to begin with B. Had a Lucid Dream while unconscious. You cannot go with another answer at this point, because I didn't experience any alt form of consciousness. And I cannot be wrong every single time, while you are right every single time. Now who's the one with the great big ego on his chest? Unless of course I was a retard, which I am not.
And when the fires open right beneath us, our legs get burned while our heads get cold. And we move like we want to dance, because the fire song hasn't yet stop.
This ones way of topic and yet again turned into a useless debate bordering on bullying so I am going to lock it. I need to remind everyone that this is a Lucid dreaming forum at heart and that is the purpose of the posts not a place to push for the fun of it
Peter Moderator