Anyone ever have an out-of-body experience?

I figured I'd share this here because it's semi relevant to sleep and I've never got any opinions before on the subject.

Most my youth I had problems falling asleep - my mind tends to stay very act and I can't keep it quiet long enough to fall asleep. Many years ago, as a desperate 12-year-old, I read on the internet methods of calming the mind through self-hypnosis. It was pretty much just a combination of counting down in your head, telling your body what it will do at certain numbers, controlling your breathing, and tightening and loosening the muscles at different points in the countdown.

One night as I got to the end of the process, I drifted about six feet below my body. As in my body was clearly laying above me. What was also really weird was I had the CD player on low in the background (because my 12-year-old self for some reason thought music could also help me sleep) and I could hear the music while below my body - except I was hearing it through my body above me. As in the music was traveling from the boombox, to my body, and down to me. This wasn't a dream, I was definitely awake through the process, and after just kinda hanging out below my body for a while I floated back up and "re-entered" my body.

Anyone else have any similar experiences? I used to always see this in Ninja movies while they meditated - but they always went above their body into a cloudy space instead of down into darkness.

Rallynochaos OBE are very common, as in 10-25% of the general population have had them and they're even more common amongst lucid dreamers. My opinion may surprise you, but I don't think that the majority of inexperienced lucid dreamers or non-lucid dreamers can tell whether they're awake or not.

Even though OBE do occur while people are awake, they also occur in dreams, when they're clearly asleep. I think you were asleep because you had a clear dreamsign in your OBE.

What was also really weird was I had the CD player on low in the background (because my 12-year-old self for some reason thought music could also help me sleep) and I could hear the music while below my body - except I was hearing it through my body above me. As in the music was traveling from the boombox, to my body, and down to me.

Having unbroken consciousness or having a dream occur in a real world setting and where your real body is, is actually commonplace.

If you have an OOBE, sorry to say this, but, you are either dreaming (sleep hallucination) or hallucinating if awake. There is no such thing as leaving the body for real. Such sensation is always illusory and the product of the mind.

Now, I would contend that lucid dreamers manage the more advanced form of the phenomenon. What I mean by this is that a lucid dream is superior to an ostensible OOBE by definition as the sleeper recognises the environment for what it really is: a dream.

Here's an analogy: the schizophrenic may hallucinate and be completely swayed by delusion. The psilocybin user may lucidly enjoy what appears to be reality distortions knowing fully well that he hallucinates. Lucid dreaming is analogous to the latter, OOBEs tend to be analogous to the former especially when practitioners hold New Age or Spiritualistic beliefs - even the agnostics can fall for the illusion.

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Summerlander wrote: If you have an OOBE, sorry to say this, but, you are either dreaming (sleep hallucination) or hallucinating if awake. There is no such thing as leaving the body for real. Such sensation is always illusory and the product of the mind.

Now, I would contend that lucid dreamers manage the more advanced form of the phenomenon. What I mean by this is that a lucid dream is superior to an ostensible OOBE by definition as the sleeper recognises the environment for what it really is: a dream.

Here's an analogy: the schizophrenic may hallucinate and be completely swayed by delusion. The psilocybin user may lucidly enjoy what appears to be reality distortions knowing fully well that he hallucinates. Lucid dreaming is analogous to the latter, OOBEs tend to be analogous to the former especially when practitioners hold New Age or Spiritualistic beliefs - even the agnostics can fall for the illusion.

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Not enough evidence to confirm this one way or the other, but the results of the Aware study support you Summerland, as none of the subjects identified the images beyond their range of sight during their Near Death Experiences during cartiac arrest. For those using NDE as proof of OBE or the existence of a spirit this was a major blow the same for ESP supporters including Remote Viewers/Clairvoyants.

I've only had a few lucid dreams and a few out-of-body experiences. I'm not picky. I think either "flavor" of "conscious journeying" experience is tremendously interesting.

In Robert Waggoner's book "Lucid Dreaming : Gateway To The Inner Self", Chapter 3 - "Moving In Mental Space" provides many interesting insights. Waggoner says it is often easy to confuse lucid dreaming and OBEs. A vivid dream memory of flying around a tree in your yard could be either a LD or OBE. He lists 6 distinctions between these two categories of experience, but he says the most common difference is that lucid dreamers often have the ability to change their dream environment, to a certain degree, whereas, people experiencing OBEs do not report consciously changing their dream environment.

Also, Waggoner ponders "Does space exit only in the mind?" ... "Do you actually venture through space, or would it be more correct to say you venture through ideas, intents, and beliefs exteriorized? Is the movement of consciousness the only movement?" (p.37)

I recommend the following good books about out-of-body experiences. -

• "Journeys Out Of The Body" by Robert Monroe

• "Adventures Beyond The Body" by William Buhlman

• "Astral Dynamics - A New Approach To Out-Of-Body Experience" by Robert Bruce

• Also, there are many videos on YouTube featuring the above mentioned authors.

jasmine2

That's a tough question to ask a LD group as many here believe lucid dreams and OBES are the same thing. I myself dont thou and experience these two things differently (thou at times one can have both going on so it doesnt have to be experiencing from just one or the other either).

Yes Ive had some very interesting OBES. In an OBE I can interact with our real world eg once while floatin up by my ceiling, I saw a gift voucher my boyfriend had hidden on the top of my wardrobe which he hadnt told me about. I was actually able to read it!! where it was too and the amount for. (boyfriend was annoyed at me as he wouldnt believe I saw it in an OBE and accused me of spying on him while he was hiding it). Ive had other interaction with real life experiences too during OBEs.

LDs thou are when the subconcious mind is making something up.

Your experience sounds like an OBE.

rallynochaos.. if you want to learn OBE I suggest going to an OBE site instead of a LD website. With OBES one doesnt want the subconsciousness manifesting as otherwise it becomes a dream. There is a slightly different state involved for a clear OBE and I find its near impossible to be working on LD states and then expect to be having OBES (as then I end up in mixed LD states which may have slight astral awareness too but the dream state will contaminate an OBE so you then cant trust that what you are experiencing is real).

With one you need your mind very clear and no dreaming coming in, with the other you need to let your mind go in such a way in which you start dreaming. Very slight differences (both of cause need the same kind of body relaxation state) but the mind difference will alter which you are doing. (hence its hard to do one and then be trying to do the other, I find thou that people seem to be more intune with either LD or AP depending on which brain state they find easier. Some will start to try to LD and end up starting to go into OBE state instead).

Once you work with one of these states, it like becomes a habit (and is very difficult then to go and do the other state just like that, your brain will want to do what its used to be doing as its a real shift to change). I nowdays dont tend to have OBEs cause Ive been focused on LD for while.

Snaggle wrote: I think you were asleep because you had a clear dreamsign in your OBE.

That's one thing I look for too which can help one tell if another was dreaming at least some, I cant see the dream sign thou you are refering too. Please share what you are thinking is a dream sign with this one? Where the radio was in relation to his projected body? (that does make OBE sense to me, I experience physical things in relation to where my astral body is.. the point of consciousness has appropriately changed location) .. or have I missed something?

Tania

What was also really weird was I had the CD player on low in the background (because my 12-year-old self for some reason thought music could also help me sleep) and I could hear the music while below my body - except I was hearing it through my body above me. As in the music was traveling from the boombox, to my body, and down to me.

Summerland would say that being out of your body is a clear dreamsign ;). I take a neutral view on whether or not real OBE exist or not, but tend to think those happening during dreams and when people are trying to sleep are dreams and certainly some and maybe all OBE are a subtype of dreams. The music traveling to his body and then down to his "double"/Ka or whatever (as he did not describe whether or not he still at a body and if so what kind) is a fairly strong dreamsign, as even out of body one's physical body is not a "PC" wirelessly transmitting to ones out of body self.

The most obvious way to tell if it is a dream or not is by the contrast. When you go from not feeling your body to feeling your body again, you will notice it. If you re-enter and you can hear the blood flowing in your veins and feel the hair on your arms against your skin, then you know it wasnt a dream.

How can you trust that sort of perception when the dreaming mind can emulate any sensation and give the illusion of reality? Real OOBEs (ie really being out of the body) don't exist. Snaggle is dreaming. The OOBEs we experience are illusions, just dreams produced by the kind of phase state of the brain (40 hz gamma) that is also responsible for lucid dreaming.

The difference between OOBEs and lucid dreams is that in the latter the individual recognizes the true nature of his surroundings (that of a dream) as opposed to the former where he is overcome with delusion (duped by the mental milieu). :-)

Give up the ghost! Literally... :-D

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This old debate again and my normal response as follows,

I have had thousands of lucid dreams and I have had many hundreds of OBE's. They are different techniques for the same event and that is an entry into the inner world of our minds. If I observe the darkness in my eyes when attempting a WILD then I directly enter a lucid dream If I practice what I call body awareness when attempting a WILD then I quietly slip out of my physical body and will be standing in my room, then I can walk away, decide what I want and be in a lucid dream.

This is my experience and like all of this it can only ever be a description of what I think is happening. I have used a ZEO sleep recorder and it shows the same pattern for both a lucid dream and an OBE and that is direct entry to REM from being awake.

And no I don't have the recordings anymore but If I dig the ZEO out of the drawer and it still works then I will just do it all again.

I'm new here, and I dont want to hijack this thread. however We had a reunion at a place know as "Beth's Uncle's Farm". Beautiful Wisconsin pastures surrounded by woods. Wildlife, but no cattle any more. Still standing was a barn and an outhouse. That morning I was checking the place out. There were some really nice oak and maple trees on it. A little mosquito pond. Lots of green pasture. I noticed two kids swinging on a rope swing down by the barn and wondered who belonged to them. When we lined up for lunch, I noticed the swing wasn't there. I asked Beth (who's uncle owned the farm) if the swing had broke. "what swing" she asked. I told her I saw two kids swinging on the rope swing hanging from the tree by the barn. Beth asked if it was a boy and a girl about 10 years old. When I said yes, she told me that those were two children that had died in the house fire in the 1920s, and that other people had seen them by the pond. The two were happy we were visiting.

So when you say

Summerlander said - Give up the ghost! Literally...

you want me to start lying to myself. I do not lie. I will not try to wish away things that really happened.

You seem to have some closed minded view that if YOU didn't experience it, it "doesn't exist"

Summerlander, you are free to have whatever Faith that makes you feel comfortable.
Please have the courtesy to not force yours on other people. By the way, just because some people do not share your Faith does not mean we are "overcome with delusion"

I didn't call anyone a liar, my friend. I have just pointed out time and again that over a century of neuroscience has shown us that everything about our minds is excisable by brain damage or malfunction - including consciousness. People can lose the power of speech, vision, memory, conceptual comprehension and recognition (amongst many other qualities), and yet expect to recognise their deceased loved ones, communicate with them, and perceive everything with great clarity in death (when the brain is completely destroyed or has ceased to function completely). It sounds to me like this belief in the afterlife is a product of wishful thinking - don't you think? :)

It is not about following what makes me feel comfortable either (if anything, I think the other way around is the case). I'm just following evidence and reason. It is possible that you saw two (living) children who had set up some kind of swing and then removed it when they were done playing. When you told Beth, she immediately made an association that led to the assumption that they were the ghosts of children who had died long ago. The truth is that Beth did not see what you saw at the time. The truth is that we are all susceptible to illusions and bias. The truth is that perhaps you didn't even see what you think you saw (as you remember it). False memory and confabulations are often begotten by feedback from others (in your case, Beth). The truth of what you really saw could have been obnubilated by the fallacious reasoning of those who heard your narrative. Too quick to jump to conclusions for my liking.

And why is it that those who believe in such nonsense, or are so sure about its veracity, fail to prove or convince the rest of the world? Because, not only there is no evidence for what they claim (none), but they also don't have a good reason for entertaining the idea other than their own fear of death. They don't want real death to be true. (Something that Sigmund Freud picked up on back in his day.) :geek:

If spirits existed, and they controlled living bodies, we would have discovered them by now. Quantum physicists can detect Higgs bosons responsible for mass, and yet, something as hypothetical as a soul, which grossly controls a huge bundle of molecules such as our bodies, cannot be found. Hmmm... :roll:

If it is non-physical, as it is sometimes described, it cannot possibly interact with the physical and therefore cannot control bodies, i.e. we have no soul. If it controls bodies, then it is part of physical reality as a force and therefore detectable - more so than subatomic particles! And yet, nothing is found and it never will. I hope I have made myself crystal clear as to why dualism is not just absurd to me, but also untenable as a little ratiocination reveals. The Cartesian view is outdated and the absurdity of the soul should be obvious to everyone in this day and age. :D

It is true that people do experience strange things. I have experienced them myself, y'know! :mrgreen: But you will find that there are more mundane explanations out there and they tend to always check out. Never jump to conclusions based on hearsay, superstition, and belief from irrationality. ;)

Ok lads, you have both made strong points and its time to agree to disagree and keep this interesting discussion on topic and off emotions. I don't want other members to stop posting because of a difference of opinion that gets out of hand

Peter Moderator

No problem, I'm finished with this topic anyway. :D

I don't want other members to stop posting because of a difference of opinion that gets out of hand

Hey, like I said, I'm new here. Didn't know. I don't think I have even posted 15 times yet. however I realize that some people really have never seen the Sidhe, or Ghosts or Demons or Angels. Some have never seen the Shadow People or the Sobek or even those "Ascended Master" jerks in the dream world. And I can understand if they say "Cool. Personally I have never witnessed this" I didn't realize that when someone speaks the truth others would call them Delusional and/or stating falsehoods.
I know I would never twist other peoples experiences to try and fit them into my Faith system using boilerplate rationalizations.

Thank you. I now understand that this is done here.
Who am I to disagree?

Awesome and cheers to both of you. We need differing opinions and beliefs and facts so don't stop putting them forward, the hard bit is at times to get that others don't see it the same way

Cheers Peter Moderator

You can disagree with the majority and back up your argument with good reason if it means a lot to you to convince the rest of us of your certainty, nawick. If you provide me with what I might deem compelling evidence, you may just sway me to conclude that there might be something there after all. ;)

nawick wrote:

I don't want other members to stop posting because of a difference of opinion that gets out of hand

Hey, like I said, I'm new here. Didn't know. I don't think I have even posted 15 times yet. however I realize that some people really have never seen the Sidhe, or Ghosts or Demons or Angels. Some have never seen the Shadow People or the Sobek or even those "Ascended Master" jerks in the dream world. And I can understand if they say "Cool. Personally I have never witnessed this" I didn't realize that when someone speaks the truth others would call them Delusional and/or stating falsehoods.
I know I would never twist other peoples experiences to try and fit them into my Faith system using boilerplate rationalizations.

Thank you. I now understand that this is done here.
Who am I to disagree?

What do you mean by "the Sobek"? is the Sobek the same as the ancient Eqyptian croc headed god?

Summerland

It is possible that you saw two (living) children who had set up some kind of swing and then removed it when they were done playing. When you told Beth, she immediately made an association that led to the assumption that they were the ghosts of children who had died long ago. The truth is that Beth did not see what you saw at the time. The truth is that we are all susceptible to illusions and bias. The truth is that perhaps you didn't even see what you think you saw (as you remember it). False memory and confabulations are often begotten by feedback from others (in your case, Beth). The truth of what you really saw could have been obnubilated by the fallacious reasoning of those who heard your narrative. Too quick to jump to conclusions for my liking.

Kids setting up a robe swing and taking it down when done is much more farfetched than ghosts. Robe swings are hard to put up and the ideamthat kids who put one up would take it down would happen less than 1 time per billion ;)

What do you mean by "the Sobek"? is the Sobek the same as the ancient Eqyptian croc headed god?

It's just what some people call them. They dont really have the heads of crocodile. They are reptilian. They walk on two legs and wear clothing. Their heads are more like Kimoto Dragons or gecko. There was a video game that depicted them perfectly, but I DONT remember which one. We are beneath their notice. It is like we can see them but they cant see us, or we are just too inconsequential.

Kids setting up a robe swing and taking it down when done is much more farfetched than ghosts. Robe swings are hard to put up and the ideamthat kids who put one up would take it down would happen less than 1 time per billion ;)

Yeah, I had to laugh at that one to. This tree was like 3 feet across and then lowest branch was as high as the barn roof. But the extent people will rationalize never ceases to amaze.

More far-fetched than ghosts? Are you sure, Snaggle? I never took you for a bit of a dualist struggling with probability... :-D

But I'll do one better for the sake of argument: the older brothers/cousins/uncles did it for the little ones and then took their invention with them. And if there were no kids at all, perhaps it was a hallucination (not to mention confabulations). Certainly more plausible than this nonsense about ghosts, don't you think, my dear? Even if the chances of what I proposed were in the billions (they are not) it would be improbable - quite different from impossible/untenable (adjectives certainly applicable to ghosts). Snaggle, do you have any idea how improbable life is and how improbable it was when our lifeless planet had just formed? And yet, here we are...

And nawick...there are such things as ladders and people with interests that others often find peculiar - this you will surely find in abundance, without needing to take a tour around the planet, before ghosts... ;-)

It's not so funny now, is it? But that is exactly what a little thinking and open-mindedness to the mundane will do - it kills the magic and hence why such traits are disliked by many. You're going to tell me that you watched the children for ages and witnessed their magical disappearance now. One in a billion, eh?

I am still waiting for the reasoning behind jumping to the conclusion that what was witnessed were ghosts or spirits and I'm surprised that Snaggle didn't pick up on this or simply overlooked it. (Or perhaps I shouldn't be surprised seen as he takes the idea of descending from a god like Thor quite seriously.)

I've pretty much heard everything...:-D

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In case anyone who has posted in here or has read this, please see here for OBEs research I am currently conducting, well at least until tomorrow night (23:50 GMT) anyway! http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15135

Thanks, Andrew

please see here for OBEs research I am currently conducting,

How did it turn out?

OBEs are just a special type of wake initiated lucid dream.

I have had countless OBEs in my lifetime, for me, abandoning my dream body is the easiest way to enter a lucid dream.

I think the same thing that an OBE is another way to enter a lucid dream.

Only one experience during a motor bike crash that makes me wonder about projecting into the normal world or if that is not valid then I need to question the concept of time so a replay of an event can happen with a out of body viewpoint at time of occurrence.

I only trust techniques developed or supported by the leading experts in lucid dream research.

These include Stephen LaBerge and Thomas Yuschak.

To relax myself and stay focused, I begin with rhythmic breathing.

I then use the 61 point relaxation recommended by Stephen LaBerge in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming

Then I perform tactile and seeded Visualizations recommended by Thomas Yuschak in Advanced Lucid dreaming.

Seeded Visualizations are also known as active passive Visualizations.

Tactile Visualizations prepare you for the OBE transition, while helping you maintain focus.

When I researched OOBE years ago the "experts" said that caffeine, alcohol, hops and nicotine were chemicals that inhibited OOB transition. As a home brewer who likes a good cigar on occasion, I pretty much have 3 strikes against me.