Experiments with managing WILD entry point

Spent this morning playing around with WILD entry, just practicing going in and out. I'm really trying to learn how to manage the entry point by just going in and out of the lucid dream state, through HI, etc. and back out (that's the easy part). Trying to find the threshold point. The whole thing was really interesting, went in and out about 5 times. Sometimes I decided to come back out and other times either got too excited or freaked out. In some, I could watch the actual dream scene form and other times, popped into it. It's so cool to pop into some random scenes. In one a plain white room formed, but heard noises which I thought were inside my house, couldn't tell if the noises were in the dream or not. Better get up to check that out, I thought, but while still looking around in this room. Quickly realized that body isn't going to move, tried to move the physical body but aware of the dream body too. That was confusing for a split-second. Then I felt my dream body lift up, twist around and float on my back with a rush a really fantastic feelings. Woke myself up, then tried to go back again. Another time I was suddenly driving this panel van running into a woman inside a wheel barrow, I yelled at her that I couldn't see the handles sticking out and hit those. She was mad, so I put the thing in reverse, crash! Jolted me back out. Try again. Suddenly I'm staring at someone who looks like Hannibal the Cannibal telling me he explained something important about my brain cells. Give me the remote, time to change channels! This was very interesting and I'm going to do it again, although I sacrificed at least two LDs, possibly more. Would be interested if anyone else has done this kind of thing and would like to compare notes.

I go in and out lots and had a coffee induced lucid this morning and had about 3 missed entries and 2 successful ones and one FA.

I like getting in touch with the feelings in my body and mind and tuning them up a little to get the entries more regular

Thanks for the response. Once I put my thoughts together, I'd like to ask you questions about this exercise if you wouldn't mind. You have lots more experience than I do.

What I'm thinking is if you can manage the entry point process and learn just that, then you can basically enter at will, more or less. You might need 3 attempts for every success, but that's O.K.

The whole thing is really trippy and difficult to handle the mental "G force" from the sudden screen changes. Going from blank screen to this evil-looking guy with crazy bright blue eyes right in my face. No in-between state, changes in a split second. How do you prepare for that?

I will post some detail later when I have a little more time to get the thoughts in order. I do agree and think there are a few ways to set yourself up to win.

LOL - you prepare by expecting the snaps from one state to another and not being a victim of them. They still get me, I had one instant of HI to me looking and being (a duel awareness) on my bike racing down a hill at impossible speeds and it shocked me, I was able to get control and instant later but the changes are instant and shocking but I also think they need to be or always will be.

Each detail needs some serious thought and pulling to bits to build up a tool chest for dream entry.

This will be an interesting thread

I have drifted in and out of the WILD state several times in one night before, however this was more down to accident than anything else. Whilst I've never gone directly from awake to an LD this way, I am often extremely aware during the first few minutes of sleep, and on several occasions have then not awoken fully, but drifted back into HI. When I enter HI this way, I am fully conscious and from there I can jump into the scene and begin an LD. I feel this is a good step towards direct LDing from a waking state. Your idea of being able to pinpoint and get used to this entry point is something I will certainly be trying to master next time this happens.

Peter wrote: LOL - you prepare by expecting the snaps from one state to another and not being a victim of them. They still get me, I had one instant of HI to me looking and being (a duel awareness) on my bike racing down a hill at impossible speeds and it shocked me, I was able to get control and instant later but the changes are instant and shocking but I also think they need to be or always will be.

It's that shock factor that's hard to deal with. I could get used a completely crazy looking person staring at me from 2 inches away, but I need more than a nanosecond to do it. Most of the scenes are more reasonable so in general you can prepare yourself. My visuals are very sharp and detailed, often coming into full clarity super fast. Incredible to watch, but kind of trippy and head snapping acceleration if you know what I mean.

Peter wrote: Each detail needs some serious thought and pulling to bits to build up a tool chest for dream entry.

This will be an interesting thread

The area I'm working on now is what I would consider the first stage of entry and that is for me a perceptible shift in thoughts, going from logical and sequential thought patterns to almost random and virtually impossible to pull them back (like what the heck did I just think?). I'm trying to figure ways to facilitate this shift, from there I generally go quickly into HI and the dream scenes appears soon after. The problem for me is relaxing and allowing the first stage to happen, I often pull it back into the logical thought stage and then I'm back to square one.

torakrubik wrote: I have drifted in and out of the WILD state several times in one night before, however this was more down to accident than anything else. Whilst I've never gone directly from awake to an LD this way, I am often extremely aware during the first few minutes of sleep, and on several occasions have then not awoken fully, but drifted back into HI. When I enter HI this way, I am fully conscious and from there I can jump into the scene and begin an LD. I feel this is a good step towards direct LDing from a waking state. Your idea of being able to pinpoint and get used to this entry point is something I will certainly be trying to master next time this happens.

Sounds like you've already experienced it. I've been working on it every morning and really getting some significant progress. Lucid dreams are already so amazing, but to go from waking state to walking around in a dream scene in sometimes just a few seconds is something else all together. The idea of doing it on demand is very attractive. But I guess this is just what WILD is. Anyway, I would really recommend for anyone who hasn't had that experience to try it.

The area I'm working on now is what I would consider the first stage of entry and that is for me a perceptible shift in thoughts, going from logical and sequential thought patterns to almost random and virtually impossible to pull them back (like what the heck did I just think?). I'm trying to figure ways to facilitate this shift, from there I generally go quickly into HI and the dream scenes appears soon after. The problem for me is relaxing and allowing the first stage to happen, I often pull it back into the logical thought stage and then I'm back to square one.

If my ZEO monitor is correct the first shift is into light sleep, it is hard to describe but feels like a drop and it is quiet. My mind starts to look inside and I see the first stages of sleep forming. It is calm, quiet and I would call it a phase shift and it shows on a sleep recorder as entry to light sleep. I am fully aware of inside and outside events but the shift is to the inside most of all. At this stage ear plugs, no drafts, are helpful and you may be very aware it itches and sheets will seem to put pressure on you. I find it easiest to use WBTB and be elevated on two pillows ( I often sleep with none and no sheets as well) and will soon be trying this in a chair as well.

This is light sleep and I think a meditative state and I sometimes wonder if a lot of people meditating are simply into light sleep. Its wonderful and It can bring on a sense of warmth that you can just bask in if you want. I get what I call energy shifts at this stage at times, it feels like a small displacement of "me" just a wisp of something moving on and I am not with it at this stage but if it is strong I will often try to put my awareness into this shift and at times have just go up and walked away from this in my dream body.

This first state is easy to get to and easy to drop out off, I practice dropping into and becoming aware of this first shift every time I sleep or nap and every time after I wake up. It is great to use to get to sleep as it is so easy to get to and so easy to miss the WILD moment if you are tired and just go to sleep. It is the first change and important, for me there are no intense body feeling associated at this first change.

I will stop here and get you thoughts as there a 3 or more shifts from here that we can flesh out.

Remember this is what I do and what I am aware off, it may be similar or vastly different for you and others

Peter wrote: If my ZEO monitor is correct the first shift is into light sleep, it is hard to describe but feels like a drop and it is quiet. My mind starts to look inside and I see the first stages of sleep forming. It is calm, quiet and I would call it a phase shift and it shows on a sleep recorder as entry to light sleep. I am fully aware of inside and outside events but the shift is to the inside most of all. At this stage ear plugs, no drafts, are helpful and you may be very aware it itches and sheets will seem to put pressure on you.

I experience roughly the same thing, the thought change is one of easier indicators for me to see, but the rest of it is also going on. There is also a change in breathing. One of my problems is that my mind is very active and creative, buzzing with activity. This is great for dreams but makes it hard to relax. Really struggle with that part which seems to be the biggest hurdle for me. Once I relax and get everything slowed down, then get to this first stage, I just hold on and it goes really quickly from there. Whatever other stages exist are very compressed after that and I can only get a short or no HI followed by formation of the dream scene. The process is sensitive to what you want to happen so it's also important to express the desires/intents at some point. Something as simple as "The dream scene will be forming soon", etc. Expressing: This is what I expect.

This morning was a complete zero for me, looks like I rebounded from too much self-induced sleep deprivation from the previous session which is one that started this thread. Slept deep with little dream recall which is unusual for me. Hopefully tomorrow will be more fruitful and will have something to report.

One of my problems is that my mind is very active and creative, buzzing with activity. This is great for dreams but makes it hard to relax

I used to spend complete nights with an active mind that just would not shut up, now I am aware of the fact that the noise is not me and I can let it buzz away without letting it interfere with relaxing. It will persist for a little while but like anything being ignored it just fades away. This has taken a lot of years to come to terms with but now is not an issue.

I had another unproductive session, got only one dream scene to appear: pretty interesting though. Suddenly in a split second I went from darkness to fishing, had my line out and was reeling it in, fish starting biting immediately, but I got too excited and lost visuals. Forgot my own advice and came back out :x

Tonight I will commit myself to making progress and hope to have something good to report on progress. I can say that the mechanism by which the dream scenes are created seems to be more accessible to me although they are completely ramdom scenes that appear. It's really quite amazing though.

cool - if you can get to the HI state then the dreams will flow. They have to happen and then the next step is to seed the dreams at the correct time and the snap to the dream state will be controlled and wont knock you back out due to some surprise like big round eyes an inch away looking at you....LOL

lucidinthe sky wrote: I can say that the mechanism by which the dream scenes are created seems to be more accessible to me although they are completely ramdom scenes that appear. It's really quite amazing though.

I don't think there is any way to influence the nature of dream scenes initially. To me that seems to contradict the meditative and open state of mind required to induce them.

torakrubik wrote: I don't think there is any way to influence the nature of dream scenes initially. To me that seems to contradict the meditative and open state of mind required to induce them.

That's been my experience. They really seem to have a mind of their own and a very creative one at that. I couldn't even have imagined some of the scenes that just pop up out nowhere. Of course they are coming form inside us (or at least this is what we think). Sometimes wonder if we are tapping into some sort of experience database located somewhere, and we just load in the instructions into the dream making aparatus.

I don't think there is any way to influence the nature of dream scenes initially.

I think that you can influence the dream or the entry but it needs to be done before or as part of the relaxing process. I have done it a few times what normally happens is that you are in a scene straight away with the intent in mind, this is great if you miss the WILD as an instant later you have the intention come to you. I find that a goal helps to stabilize the mind and therefore the dream

Peter wrote: I think that you can influence the dream or the entry but it needs to be done before or as part of the relaxing process. I have done it a few times what normally happens is that you are in a scene straight away with the intent in mind, this is great if you miss the WILD as an instant later you have the intention come to you. I find that a goal helps to stabilize the mind and therefore the dream

I had partial success at this last night. My idea was to have a dream scene, at the beach and started with that. Went through HI super quickly and lost awareness momentarily. I was at a restaurant somewhere with my spouse and thought to do an RC. Looked at my hands and they really looked too perfect for a dream so I looked once or twice more and perfect again, but one finger missing. Asked to be "excused" so I could take a walk somewhere, although I didn't plan on returning. I'm always courteous and respectful to DCs, usually because everything is so DAMN REAL, and just don't know any other way to behave. In fact I had to do RCs continously because it was so hard for me to except that it was a dream. Had a major scene change at some point and was at the beach although the water was not visible, the coast of California has very specific types of vegetation and sand dunes that gave me the indication that it was the beach. Here's where the sensory input discussion comes back. I had enough information to believe I was at the beach but no more than that. So I'm hiking on a trail with some DCs and I just had to stop and get on the ground touching the dirt, blades of grass, plants, sticks, everything. Just marvelling at it. Can just imagine how my face looked, this expression of disbelief. By the way the DCs are looking me they think I'm on some drugs or tripping (well yes, in a way they were right) But I explained to them that, no don't worry, I'm not on drugs. Continued to another place where there was a metal spiralling staircase which broke with this group of DCs on it with me so that some of us had to go back. Told the DC in front of me that I knew I had dreamed earlier of him and that this was going to happen. Then a false awakening back at the beach trail, woke up in a sleeping bag next to my spouse's. They were all wet on the outside from the humid coastal air. The lucid dream lost me at that point and I woke up. Nice experience and so real there was always doubt the whole time. But then I really love that aspect of lucid dreaming, never allowing myself to completely believe it isn't real.

Good effort and result. I needed to relax last night so had a decent lucid this morning and for the first bit just floated bodyless in a nice space. All I had was an awareness of slowly turning and floating in a nice calmness.

As for reality I am the same. The dreams are as real as daily life but I know they are dreams and that distinction when I am lucid is fine and I stop questioning when I have awareness and do what I intend for the night. There are times when I cant tell and need to do some serious RC to establish if I am dreaming or not.

Peter wrote: Good effort and result. I needed to relax last night so had a decent lucid this morning and for the first bit just floated bodyless in a nice space. All I had was an awareness of slowly turning and floating in a nice calmness.

I also experience this and mentioned it somehwere in this or another post. It's like a combination of, or one of the following: falling, floating and flying. Recently it was accompanied by very beautiful music which added even more to the experience. This experience is possible to make happen if you want it, I've done it but want to do it more. I think it's a very natural state actually. It's a fantastic feeling for me, like a state of pure existence.

Peter wrote: As for reality I am the same. The dreams are as real as daily life but I know they are dreams and that distinction when I am lucid is fine and I stop questioning when I have awareness and do what I intend for the night. There are times when I cant tell and need to do some serious RC to establish if I am dreaming or not.

I also know it's a dream, but think I can uses my "senses" in the normal manner to make the determination concerning what is "reality". My senses gather information and report back that everything is normal, therefore it must be real life. So there is feeling of complete awe, knowing on the one hand that it's a dream, but every indication is normal, real life. To me, that special feeling you get from this "dream reality experience" is one of the most amazing aspects of lucid dreaming. It's one of the highest feelings I've ever had in my life.

It's a fantastic feeling for me, like a state of pure existence.

That captures it nicely, its not so hard to capture and if I want it I either make in an intent before the dream or say that I will enter the void and normally go through a mirror to the nothingness that is everything and there I am :D

To me, that special feeling you get from this "dream reality experience" is one of the most amazing aspects of lucid dreaming. It's one of the highest feelings I've ever had in my life.

Again yes, its feels like an enhancement of all senses like they are up a few notches and the little bit of distance that allows up to bask in the feelings that is so great.

I'm trying exclusively to do the entry where I get the visuals of the dream scene, then walk through the invisible curtain into the 3 dimensional dream world without losing awareness. To me this the ultimate entry and I hope to perfect it. So far, it's been pretty rare. Got close this morning, dreaming already but sure I was awake. I remember thinking: Almost made it, I was just dreaming and missed it, darn. I'm awake now though. I check everything out around and convince myself (without doing an RC :cry:). Have to try again. Turns out I was still dreaming.

Reminds of inception, that 2 level down experience. Dreaming that you are dreaming, then dreaming that you woke up from that dream. This stuff gets pretty weird sometimes :)

I lucked out this morning too and the last few days only have had only a couple of very brief LDs cause I keep dropping out as Im catching the LD very early and it takes time to get all my physical senses in them and stabilize it eg ts so easy to drop out of an LD if one hasnt got things like ones sight there yet (which often happens to me). ...................

With yesterdays LD I thought if I tried speaking the the DC maybe I could use talking to DC to hold me there.. but it failed thou may have worked if the DC hadnt choosen to ignore me!! (They so like to do that).

I'll share yesterdays very brief LD (cutting and pasting it from my dream journal).

"I suddenly enter a LD from a wake state as in a daydream state as Im still aware of my physical body on the bed, which I can feel myself in while at the same time Im dreaming and experiencing this... Im outside the front of a house (I think I was sitting in a car on the side of the road and the house may of been my house). The front yard of this house is like a grave yard with burial mounds all over the yard. A tall, thin, strange looking guy walks passed me and into the front yards burial mound setting.. (wanting to do the dream character challenges) I yell out "Who are you?" The strange guy turns and looks at me briefy but continues walking, a second guy with a similar build, goes by following the first guy.

Im uncomfortable right throu this dream as I can feel the way my head is on my hands and my neck isnt comfortable. This discomfort ends up pulling me out of the LD and I loose it due to the attention on my physical body too much.

Note to myself.. use a pillow next time and dont try to go doing this while laying at odd angles with a twisted neck. I fell asleep last time I tried to LD so with this one purposely didnt use a pillow to be slightly uncomfortable with the idea of that stopping me from just falling asleep but instead.. I think being uncomfortable was just one big LD distraction.." ..............

Anyway.. the big thing Im working currently on is strengthening my entry or learning to stabilise it faster. Is anyone else here doing their LDs from an awake body state? and then trying to maintain the dream when the body isnt asleep? Its being a battle for me to stabilize while I still have body awareness or all my physical senses havent transfered over to the dream yet.

I personally believe the dreams are always there.. just our subconsciousness which never stops being active..but its just our awareness which isnt. So to me its a matter of connecting with what the subconciousness is running at the time...and naturally entering into that. (unless one "programs" the dream which one wants to be running when one enters). I currently arent trying to enter into anything as entry is so natural anyway... the staying thou. I'll keep working on it.

A long time ago when I used to do different things to LD eg let myself go to sleep to have one or WBTB and then go back to "sleep" and LD.. it was the becoming lucid while in a dream which was harder doing that (I was only having up to 5 a week when I was at my best) but as I was more fully there so didnt have any issues with stabilization (or it was rare ..once i got over that beginners excitment stage everyone goes throu), so could stay 30-50mins in a LD.

With the method Im using now.. its fairly easy for me to get into a LD at will so my capacity to have them is increased but its hard to get to the stabilization point which is easier to work from. It seems the different methods present very different issues.

My ideal LD state would be just be able to shift to a LD or an OBE state at will, no break in consciousness (well that one part Ive got ok), any time, anywhere... no matter what one was doing at time. I'll keep working towards this, I know it can be done. I want full time dual consciousness. haha Im not asking for too much are I. I've got a lot of practicing I need to do!!

taniaaust1 wrote:

My ideal LD state would be just be able to shift to a LD or an OBE state at will, no break in consciousness (well that one part Ive got ok), any time, anywhere... no matter what one was doing at time. I'll keep working towards this, I know it can be done. I want full time dual consciousness. haha Im not asking for too much are I. I've got a lot of practicing I need to do!!

I think we have already full time dual consciousness, just usually not aware of it. In lucid dreams and OBEs we become aware.

That's quite an ambitious goal you set for yourself! That is pretty much the ultimate level though, being able to move back and forth at will, any time.

I'm still just trying to be able to do WILD that way and after a month of unsuccessful attempts, I made it in this morning! The hardest part for me is relaxing and letting the HI phase start. Once that happens, the rest is not nearly as difficult.

Sometimes it sort of feels to me like riding in a wave or something like that. Once you get into the right position on the wave, you let go and let it take you into the dream. Other times there's an image before my dream eyes and I simply make the decision to "enter" into it and then it becomes a 3 dimensional physical world. Have to say that's my absoloute favorite so far.

lucidinthe sky wrote:

taniaaust1 wrote: My ideal LD state would be just be able to shift to a LD or an OBE state at will, no break in consciousness (well that one part Ive got ok), any time, anywhere... no matter what one was doing at time. I'll keep working towards this, I know it can be done. I want full time dual consciousness. haha Im not asking for too much are I. I've got a lot of practicing I need to do!!

I think we have already full time dual consciousness, just usually not aware of it. In lucid dreams and OBEs we become aware.

That's quite an ambitious goal you set for yourself! That is pretty much the ultimate level though, being able to move back and forth at will, any time.

I'm still just trying to be able to do WILD that way and after a month of unsuccessful attempts, I made it in this morning! The hardest part for me is relaxing and letting the HI phase start. Once that happens, the rest is not nearly as difficult.

Sometimes it sort of feels to me like riding in a wave or something like that. Once you get into the right position on the wave, you let go and let it take you into the dream. Other times there's an image before my dream eyes and I simply make the decision to "enter" into it and then it becomes a 3 dimensional physical world. Have to say that's my absoloute favorite so far.

congrats on the wild :) . yea the letting go to the needed amount we need to let go, I find difficult too.

Cause I dont get HIs much and usually just find myself in the LD so I havent yet managed to see and enter into an image yet .that sounds fun to be able to see and choose to enter (sight in my LDs is usually the last thing which comes in for me).

Im having a hard time with inconsistancy too.. I'll have a very good week with many LDs (and start to think that Ive finally really got the hang of it), then suddenly find myself falling asleep instead of having WILDs the week after. Ive had a bad past 4 days for this stuff. I dont understand why Im getting so much inconsistancy.. thou I have been more tired past few days so maybe that's it. (Unless its the moon affects my LDs or something else.. I know my health can affect them).

taniaaust1 wrote: congrats on the wild :) . yea the letting go to the needed amount we need to let go, I find difficult too.

Cause I dont get HIs much and usually just find myself in the LD so I havent yet managed to see and enter into an image yet .that sounds fun to be able to see and choose to enter (sight in my LDs is usually the last thing which comes in for me).

Thanks. The dream scenes where I can choose to enter have been few and far between. I think only 3 times so far. The rest are more like what you are describing. In those kind of WILDs, I "pop" into the dream scene with a momentary loss of awareness. If it's short enough, I can make it in. But I don't know how you can time things without HI. I would imagine that to be difficult. Finding that HI is often very short in the early A.M. hours when it's best to lucid dream. The best time for me to really experience HI is right after bed. The HI at that point is strong and trip-like if you can stay awake to experience it. That's the only time when I get the perfectly replicated sounds such as music, voices, glass breaking, you name it.

taniaaust1 wrote: Im having a hard time with inconsistancy too.. I'll have a very good week with many LDs (and start to think that Ive finally really got the hang of it), then suddenly find myself falling asleep instead of having WILDs the week after. Ive had a bad past 4 days for this stuff. I dont understand why Im getting so much inconsistancy.. thou I have been more tired past few days so maybe that's it. (Unless its the moon affects my LDs or something else.. I know my health can affect them).

Consistancy seems to be the big problem for everyone. Suddenly I am able to turn on the HI in the A.M. hours when it's best for lucid dreaming. Don't know why, but I am aware of the fact that it's me operating the controls. At this point, I just can't always get to whatever controls it

lucidinthe sky wrote: The rest are more like what you are describing. In those kind of WILDs, I "pop" into the dream scene with a momentary loss of awareness. If it's short enough, I can make it in. But I don't know how you can time things without HI. I would imagine that to be difficult.

You seem to be understanding my current issue well.. the differences in feel are so so subtle so its so hard to time when to let myself suddenly drift and then enter right into the LD. I hit what would be best described a what one has when awake and driving a car while tired.. like a micro nap. where ones head would nod for a brief faction of a second of lost awareness before one realises one is still driving a car. Then being startled by instead of the feel of the head drop down while driving, its rather the shock of suddenly being somewhere else which then throws one completely awake and aware again into 100% waking consciousnesses. (thou i dont know if I go into one of those micronap things all the time but maybe i do and arent aware of it as it happens so very fast.... happened and over before one is often really aware of it).

So that is what I say one needs to aim for.. like a micro nap.. a brief split second of time where you completely let go so you can just go into the LD. Knowing when you could get into a micro nap fast (to much let go dallying and you will fall asleep) is the key with how Im doing it at times.

This morning while trying to LD instead I spontanously ended up doing something else completely different to the LD stuff and with that learnt something completely new. Im thrilled right now as it's something I was taught about years ago by one of my psi teachers but with his method I could never master his technique (could hardly ever do it without his help). This morning I found a different way to achieve it :) so for the next two weeks Im going to be giving lucid dreaming a miss while I work on some other things. (I started to worry I was setting myself up for failure since my LD attempts havent been successful for the past 5 days.. Im not happy unless Im getting about a 50% success rate.. I'd gone to that to none at all.. i didnt want my subconscious to get into a pattern of not achieving so im happy to find something else to work with and then come back to the LD stuff when my subconciousness towards LDs is cooporating more with me again or Ive mastered the other thing Im going to work on for a while now.. it may end up helping me with LDs too but i dont know that as yet thou I know it helps astral projection).

Was wondering where at what point in sleep time you are when you are most actively trying to LD.

I'm finding big difference depending on how much sleep. This morning for example, after around 7 1/2 hours of sleep I was going in and out of WILD fairly easily, but the dream quality was poor. The dreams were shallow with semi-transparent visuals but still had good touch sensation. Had 2 very short ones, but they easy to get into so it was good practice for entering the dreams, more like those visuals you can just go into. The problem was the quality and depth of the dreams. Anyway, would like to know more about this.

lucidinthe sky wrote: Was wondering where at what point in sleep time you are when you are most actively trying to LD.

I'm finding big difference depending on how much sleep. This morning for example, after around 7 1/2 hours of sleep I was going in and out of WILD fairly easily, but the dream quality was poor. The dreams were shallow with semi-transparent visuals but still had good touch sensation. Had 2 very short ones, but they easy to get into so it was good practice for entering the dreams, more like those visuals you can just go into. The problem was the quality and depth of the dreams. Anyway, would like to know more about this.

I was doing my WILDs before I've had any sleep at all (and was having the 50% success rate of having a LD start up). I do agree that that is probably a harder time to do them. They are easier to do when one first wakes up in the morn but Im just not wanting to be laying in bed trying to WILD just after I woke up so currently I wouldnt find it fun to make myself stay laying there at that time. I thou find MUCH HARDER to stablize WILDs before having any sleep (an issue I dont usually have at all with staying in my LDs with other ways)

I had my first sort-of successful experience trying WILD after very little sleep. I got further this time than any other. I found that HI stage is much more intense and difficult to manage. The hallucinations are really psychedelic and change so quickly, I just can't adjust that fast. At the same time it's very interesting to watch, but I haven't been able to get through it yet without waking up.

I was able to work on WILD entry this morning after quite a bit more sleep, almost the other end of the spectrum. I can just about create the dream from something like thought at that point (it's a hybrid of thought and intent), but the dreams created at that stage are not as deep. I did that this morning and imagined/intentioned a scene driving my car and I got out of the car with my son who was driving. As we were walking along I thought to myself, I can make this into a lucid dream now * and put my hand on his shoulder as we walked. I got confused at some point and thought is this imagination, a lucid dream or am I just walking around with my son? It felt completely real and I was trying to come up with conversation, but then suddenly I just couldn't believe it was dream and had these thoughts * What I am doing here? I need to get back to bed so I can keep working on having a lucid dream! and then woke up. That's crazy, don't know why I do things like that, but it gets really confusing about where you are and what you are doing, it's too damn real sometimes to figure where the heck I am.

lucidinthe sky wrote: but then suddenly I just couldn't believe it was dream and had these thoughts * What I am doing here? I need to get back to bed so I can keep working on having a lucid dream!* and then woke up. That's crazy, don't know why I do things like that, but it gets really confusing about where you are and what you are doing, it's too damn real sometimes to figure where the heck I am.

You are getting confused as you have less of your waking mind engaged in the experience then you are thinking you have at the time...hence then get confused what is going on as you arent thinking straight. (there are pros and cons in that.. it means its easier to stay in the dream as your subconsciousness is affecting you more but at same time it makes it harder to stay aware what is real and what isnt, what reality you are in. It can make you think the dream is real.

taniaaust1 wrote:

lucidinthe sky wrote: but then suddenly I just couldn't believe it was dream and had these thoughts * What I am doing here? I need to get back to bed so I can keep working on having a lucid dream!* and then woke up. That's crazy, don't know why I do things like that, but it gets really confusing about where you are and what you are doing, it's too damn real sometimes to figure where the heck I am.

You are getting confused as you have less of your waking mind engaged in the experience then you are thinking you have at the time...hence then get confused what is going on as you arent thinking straight. (there are pros and cons in that.. it means its easier to stay in the dream as your subconsciousness is affecting you more but at same time it makes it harder to stay aware what is real and what isnt, what reality you are in. It can make you think the dream is real.

Sounds basically correct. It's that in-between state of thinking/imagining/dreaming where things can kind of go back and forth and you get confused. Sometimes I can't figure out what is real and what isn't and just reject the experience entirely. Even sometimes I know it's a dream, I just can't accept it for some reason. I keep thinking I just need better mental preparation.

Wanted to revisit WILD entry point discussion again in light of some recent successes.

What I've learned lately is that a "flatter" more extended time line of the pre-entry WILD allows for much easier entry. You can play around in the HI state and kind of ride the visuals right in when they start to form up.

So far, this elongation has only occurred for me late into the sleep session, after around 6-7 hours of sleep. Normally would not have very much depth to the dreams at that point, but when there has been a lack of sleep the previous night or nights, it works the best. Entry is much easier and the dreams are deep enough to be good lucid dreams.

I'm going to work on observing more details on this, now that I know how to recognize the state that provides the easiest WILD entry. I'll post them here if I learn more.

Had another session of WILD entry after 8 hours of sleep. I was ready to give up, but stuck it out a little longer and it was well worth it. I found it very easy to WILD at that point after that much sleep. Had 2 fairly short LDs even though the dreams were not as stable as some and difficult to extend. But still, it is very useful as practice, you can really just go in and out of the lucid dream state directly, pretty much at will and really work on the technique and watch the stages of entry. I would recommend trying this for those who are struggling with WILD.

Good work, sometimes it is that easy and at others just cant get there or for me anyway. It feels like something will only work once and then needs to be just a little different each time but in fact maybe I am not doing exactly the same thing each time.

I had an early evening WILD a few days back, they are rare for me and followed up with a set of morning dreams in full daylight. Would be great to do those at will and all totally without any aids

Peter wrote: Good work, sometimes it is that easy and at others just cant get there or for me anyway. It feels like something will only work once and then needs to be just a little different each time but in fact maybe I am not doing exactly the same thing each time.

I had an early evening WILD a few days back, they are rare for me and followed up with a set of morning dreams in full daylight. Would be great to do those at will and all totally without any aids

Great! An early evening WILD is rare for anyone. If there is anything you did differently that you can put your finger on, please let us know. When things go right it often seems easy, but then trying to repeat the same thing is difficult because you don't what exactly you did to make it easy. It seems to me that everything we do in lucid dreaming is easy if we do it right, it's just that doing it right is what is difficult.

I did learn something in my last WILD session. I did see the relationship with my mental state then and the mental state after supplements, they were pretty much identical. It's easier to get that state with supplements, but it ends up being the same place you are getting too, at least that's what I'm seeing. The experience was like riding along the edge, being able to be switch back and forth between conscious waking state and conscious dreams state at will and being aware of the dream creating function going on, but not able to control the content. Very interesting to just hang out there and observe. The only problem I had is that the dreams were not deep enough sometimes at that point so I'm hoping to get there a bit earlier.

Great! An early evening WILD is rare for anyone. If there is anything you did differently that you can put your finger on, please let us know

Yes, I had driven about 9 hours and was exhausted and that would be what helped. It was like an afternoon nap more than going to sleep at night and as I relaxed I had a warmth flood over me and fully expected to get lucid as I know that feeling well.

The contradiction is that either be rested so you can stay awake while going to sleep or be exhausted physically and get to sleep that fast you mind wont keep up.

With supps it a fine line and here and then there is easy with full immersion just an act of will away. The letting go is hardest, that total submission to the dream or from nothing to something that takes you. One time I was on the edge with some HI but no form or shape and then on my road bike (pedal power) and going crazy fast down a hill. It freaked me and I popped out, got angry and went right back and rode my bike like a world champ down this hill and then off to another dream.

I cant predict the strength of change or even if I can get lucid. I tried 3 times for a study in the past weeks and was lucid between attempts but not on the nights I needed. Annoying but does not bother me but for the researchers I wish I could have completed

lucidinthe sky wrote: Had another session of WILD entry after 8 hours of sleep. I was ready to give up, but stuck it out a little longer and it was well worth it. I found it very easy to WILD at that point after that much sleep. Had 2 fairly short LDs even though the dreams were not as stable as some and difficult to extend. But still, it is very useful as practice, you can really just go in and out of the lucid dream state directly, pretty much at will and really work on the technique and watch the stages of entry. I would recommend trying this for those who are struggling with WILD.

Nods.. I find the same... easy after 8hrs sleep (as long as one tries it immediately on waking and dont allow oneself to wake up too much) but on the other hand the LDs are shorter eg 5-15mins.. and yeah great for practicing going in and out and back into LD states and for practicing stabilization. Sometimes I can do go in and out of the LDs up to 4-5 times (I think my record was 6-7 times)

It is quite possible to in just 5-10 mins.. to have a quite interesting LD. With mine I never know where I'll end up unless Im trying to get back into the same dream I just left. It can be fun just seeing where one is going to end up in a dream.