Galantamine and Choline (updated: Successful 4th attempt)

Did quite a bit of reading on these and I'm ready to give them a try. Initially I rejected any supplements mainly because of what I would call a "purist" attitude. But now that I've been lucid dreaming now for almost 2 years, I'm ready to see if they can help make it easier and better.

The older I get, the more I abandon that purist mentality and the more appealing the idea of assistance. For example, I am into astronomy and used to believe that reading a chart and manually finding objects in the night sky was the only "right" way to do it. These people using computer guiding were somehow cheating. But then I realized that more time was being spent* looking for*, not looking at objects. I learned how to do the hard way, but now I have a computer guided system and see 5 times more in an observing session than I used to. Time is limited and I'd rather get more lucid dreaming observing in if I can. Maybe I won't get to see 5 times as much with supplements, but willing to give it try to see.

I read that typically lucid dreams are 80% DILD and 20% WILD and that Galantamine reverses the ratio. Hope that's true for me.

Will report back on how they work.

Trust my friend, as long you look at these pills for a treat to be had every 2 weeks or so, you will have no problems. You won't build a dependence, and I'm sure you'll find that this pill combination is quite potent.

The effect they have on dreams, is quite strange. I feel like anytime I take those 2 pills, I'm taking the dream meter from average to super crazyness!

From these pills, I've experienced OBEs, strange bizarre obivious DILDS, effortless WILDs, very very very realistic non lucid dreams to the point they seem as real as reality, I've had "micro-awakenings", auditory hallucinations that led to a WILD, and proably a couple other strange cool things I'm not remembering right now!:)

It was a good choice, you will enjoy it:)

[ Post made via iPhone ] Image

The older I get, the more I abandon that purist mentality and the more appealing the idea of assistance. For example, I am into astronomy and used to believe that reading a chart and manually finding objects in the night sky was the only "right" way to do i

I can relate to this as my process of doing stuff is ( There must be a hard way to do this, I reckon I can find it)

Supplements, use sparingly and enjoy when you find something that works for you. They only assist in the same way a dive tank is one step up from holding you breath if you want to go deeper and longer....

I think that doing new things using the most basic method is generally good for starting. Children must still learn arithmetic on paper even though we have calculators and computers, but once you know how to do it you use the calculator. Learning how to read a map should come before using a GPS. But after you know how to use a map, travelling is much more efficient with a GPS and you can see a lot more places that way. I'm hoping this will be the same way. The idea is to try to get the most possible out of the experience and it could make the difference between having the experience or not having it at all.

Lucidinthe sky, could you please tell me which site(s) you ordered these supplements from, because a while ago, I spent some time looking for a reliable source and came up with basically nothing I felt comfortable trusting. Thanks.

I ordered on Amazon.com.

I got the supplements and tried them last night for the first time. Unfortunately was not able to have a lucid dream but the experience was interesting and will try them again in 2 weeks. Here's a summery:

Went to sleep at approximately 10 P.M. Woke up 4 1/2 later at 2:30 A.M. After being awake for around 15 minutes, took one Galantamind tablet (4mg of Galanatmine) and one Alpha GPC tablet (300 mg of choline). Had trouble getting to sleep, but that's normal for me when I wake up in the middle of the night. After being unable to sleep for around an hour, I started noticing the effects. The first noticeable change was a louder than usual ringing in my ears. Fell asleep soon after, would guess around 3:30. Woke up after a little more than an hour so it was probably in still in the REM cycle. During that time there was a dream which I would rate as average in terms of vividness. Probably the most interesting thing that happened was that after being awake for around a minute, I had a very distinct OBE instantaneously like a shift. It completely surprised me and was really freaky. The surprise made me go back to normal after just a few seconds. That was my first OBE while being wide awake so it was really cool. The effects at that point seemed to have peaked, the visual background which is normally black or grey was much lighter, shades of light blue, light grey or even white at times. My brain felt like the activity level was really high, like high energy. Everything was moving around really fast like being really excited mentally but thoughts were controllable. The ear ringing was slightly louder, though tolerable. HI was more intense for that late into sleeping, had a few false phone ringings and visuals were kind of swirling shades of color, but not clear enough to see. My guess is that if you have good enough visuals, you can sort of follow them like following a path into the WILD experience. It wasn't quite there for me this time, but I will try again and hopefully it will happen. I may consider a slightly higher dose, but the high energy brain state makes it difficult to go to sleep so don't want to increase that effect, just break through more on the visuals. I read somewhere a very small dose of Melatonin (I think the amount is .3 -1 mg). It's supposed to be enough to help you get back to sleep, but not enough to suppress REM which Melatonin does normally do in higher doses.

hat was my first OBE while being wide awake so it was really cool

So you mean as in WILD but an OBE?

It can be intense with G and the trick is to step back from the intensity and as you say just step into the dream. Different senses get involved each time and they will surprise you for a while until you get used to them and then they become signposts for dream entry

Peter wrote:

hat was my first OBE while being wide awake so it was really cool

So you mean as in WILD but an OBE?

It can be intense with G and the trick is to step back from the intensity and as you say just step into the dream. Different senses get involved each time and they will surprise you for a while until you get used to them and then they become signposts for dream entry

I was completely awake for the OBE, even had my eyes open. I might have been able to stay in it, but the quick shift made it too difficult to hold on. The visuals were almost, but not quite there. Not sure why.

It seems to turn up the volume on the senses which you can somewhat step back from although it is harder to go back to sleep which others have reported.

I can report at least partial success with G and C. Went to sleep at 2230 and woke up at 0400. I felt that this was a bit late, but decided to go for it anyway since I won't have another chance for at least a few more days. So I took the 4 mg of G and 700 of C as planned, but no Melatonin. A few strange things happened. I waited in bed for the effects to kick in and after about an hour could feel them (was checking the clock and last check was around 0450. Then all of the sudden the alarm on the clock goes off (left on from yesterday) The clock says 0600. Can't believe another hour had past and I'm sure I hadn't fallen asleep. So an hour disappeared somewhere and I was starting to worry about running out of time.

So I continued on and could see the transition into the dream state occurring quite easily at one point so that was a good experience. It's was fairly easy to see the entrance to WILD as many have reported. You are able to step back with your awareness in tact and watch things happen independently to some degree. There were 2 nice loud audios during HI which was the same as last time. Some guy yelling "Shut the fuck up!" which made me laugh and some other weird unidentified noise. I briefly lost awareness but picked up the dream quickly in an airport where I was buying something at a counter. I was struggling to get my credit card and did a quick RC, seeing only 4 fingers. After confirming it was dream, I shoved the DC out of the way and went over the counter to find the controls for the music that was playing in the background. There were all kinds of knobs back there and I tried turning quite a few of them which changed the sound in different ways. I made mental notes of how real the knobs felt, but I couldn't keep the dream stable and the quality of the visuals wasn't good to start with. I couldn't stabilize the dream which didn't last long. Don't blame the G and C, it just looked like that one wasn't deep enough.

So what I learned from this experience was that G and C create an easy-to-see entrance ramp for WILD and allow your awareness to be more separated. I'm holding back judgement on the visuals for now since the dream was not really very deep. For me to have to deep, high quality LDs it seems that I have be at least a little REM deprived as in a little less sleep on the night(s) before so that will be the next experiment. There are some that recommend using 5HTP to suppress REM, but that's one more thing that has to timed right so I'm going to pass on that at least for now.

Next experiment will be 5 hours sleep the night before and stick with 4mg of G and 700 of C.

Glad it worked. As you state there are few steps in the process and dream entry is the first one with being able to stabilize the dream the n

ext. It seems that you did have a stable dream but not a long one. If you felt the nobs and could get over counters then it was a good stable start the next goal is to get them to last a little longer.

The noises can be startling at first and are real but internally generated and a sign that the dream is close so look for them. Timing, I will often lose a few seconds and then be lucid with that small jump at the start. I find a balance between REM deprived and that is what 5 HTP is meant to do but I am not sure as I use a sleep recorder at times and there is not a lot of difference between using and not using it but it does have an effect. It may be that it does not deprive REM but sets up for easier generation of that state after a few hours sleep

Peter wrote: Glad it worked. As you state there are few steps in the process and dream entry is the first one with being able to stabilize the dream the n

ext. It seems that you did have a stable dream but not a long one. If you felt the nobs and could get over counters then it was a good stable start the next goal is to get them to last a little longer.

Looking back at what happened, I might have actually caused the instability and shortness of the dream by getting into this "over-excited, do crazy things mode" that I sometimes get into when it looks like the dream is not going to be very good or long. Thinking that time is running out and trying to hurry up before it's gone just ends up being somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But then again, the visual quality tells me it wasn't deep. Super good touch though.

Peter wrote: The noises can be startling at first and are real but internally generated and a sign that the dream is close so look for them.

Normally, this quality and volume in HI sounds only come right at bed time for me, so as you say this a good sign for onset. They are quite intense and a bit startling but you can get used to them somewhat.

Peter wrote: Timing, I will often lose a few seconds and then be lucid with that small jump at the start. I find a balance between REM deprived and that is what 5 HTP is meant to do but I am not sure as I use a sleep recorder at times and there is not a lot of difference between using and not using it but it does have an effect. It may be that it does not deprive REM but sets up for easier generation of that state after a few hours sleep

For me, REM suppression will only increase the short-term potential for that particular session, but overall quality is best with a small amount of deprivation. Too much is not good, but the best seems to be a small amount over a few nights. I can usually put an REM cycle or two "in the bank" so to say. That will give me extra REM cycles and a longer potential window for LD. I think normal for me is 5 cycles and the first 3 are generally not usable for LD which leaves only 2.

For me, REM suppression will only increase the short-term potential for that particular session

How do you measure you REM cycles?

It's a guess based on averages and the fact that I often wake up right after cycles are completed (usually after the first 2 or 3, then each one after for sure, at least when I'm trying to LD. I can sometimes remember the separate dreams of each cycle, but that's more rare. There are not many cycles in one night's sleep, they are fairly long and their time doesn't vary that much. I generally wake after the first 3 cycles and each cycle after. It makes using supplements easier since my wake-up time is almost always 4-5 hours after going to sleep. If I want to wake up at 2-3 A.M., I go to bed at 10. Go to bed at 11. Wake up at 4-5 A.M. etc.

I use a ZEO sleep monitor at times and measure them so get curious when people talk of REM cycles as they are not as linear as you think, at least for me anyway. 5HTP does little to suppress the cycles but may cause them to have less intensity or do something else unrelated but REM gets the credit. I also get short bursts of REM at times, only minutes and can see then on WILD entry as well. There is a cycle as you say but it can be off at times and I have had REM last a max of just over 2 hours once and that was very long WILD lucid from beginning to end. I will say that in long lucids I wake exhausted and feel like I have a mild sugar flat or slight hangover.

I think that REM and sleep are dumb words to describe what is occurring and in time both states will be broken into more detailed states.

My first thought is do we fall into REM at the start of WILD, ie do we trigger it by what we are doing of does it need to be ready and waiting for us to connect with. For all our efforts are we passive or aggressive when using WILD techniques

Peter wrote: I use a ZEO sleep monitor at times and measure them so get curious when people talk of REM cycles as they are not as linear as you think, at least for me anyway. 5HTP does little to suppress the cycles but may cause them to have less intensity or do something else unrelated but REM gets the credit. I also get short bursts of REM at times, only minutes and can see then on WILD entry as well. There is a cycle as you say but it can be off at times and I have had REM last a max of just over 2 hours once and that was very long WILD lucid from beginning to end.

My method of determining REM cycles is just a guess, definitely non-scientific. It is interesting that the brain waves during REM are pretty much identical to waking life as far I know. When I am lucid, it certainly feels just like I am completely awake.

The problem I have with REM suppression is that it's a pretty inexact thing which is what it sounds like you're saying. And also trying to predict the rebound and get that timed right with other supplements, REM cycles, etc. just seems to complicated and imprecise for me. But then I don't have as much experience as you do. Personally, I prefer to reduce the amount of sleep and hence the number of REM cycles on nights before WILD, that way I know for sure there will be a rebound.

Peter wrote: I will say that in long lucids I wake exhausted and feel like I have a mild sugar flat or slight hangover.

I get a hangover only with the supplements, but it's fairly minor.

It is interesting that the brain waves during REM are pretty much identical to waking life as far I know. When I am lucid, it certainly feels just like I am completely awake

Same but not surprising as the activity is no less or maybe more intense that waking life.

I prefer to reduce the amount of sleep and hence the number of REM cycles on nights before WILD, that way I know for sure there will be a rebound.

That works well, enough alcohol and a late night will give very vivid dreams as all sleep is condensed into the last part of the night.

All the contradictions, enough sleep to feel rested but lack of sleep to stack up lack of REM and then easy afternoon WILD or OBE,s with REM onset very easy and very quick.

One thing I learned with G and C is to how recognize the state with that same high intensity level that's right for WILD entry. When trying the supplements, I got to watch the transition from the lower activity state and compare them. The same state does occur naturally and since then I can identify it when it occurs and then make my WILD attempts at that point. It doesn't guarantee success, but eliminates a lot of attempts which have little or no chance of success.

Tried again for the third time after waking up at 0300. Stayed up until 0400 then took 4mg of G, 700 of C. Got the ringing in the ear after about an hour, but the full effects took almost 2 hours.

This time was a very interesting and different experience from any lucid dream so far. I had 2 short lucid dreams which I just slipped into completely effortlessly. It was almost like my thoughts just morphed right into the dreams. During the next hour approximately, all my dreams were lucid and just went in and out of them, some were just little bits and pieces. Very cool mental state, kind of a hybrid between full awake and full dream. Really enjoyed the easy transition and it still felt like I was totally awake, so much so that I was worrying that my body must be doing things in the bed. It was really unusual to be so close to being awake yet the dreams had good visuals, sounds etc. although I was also very aware that the dream state was really fragile and could wake up easily.

Had two distinct lucid dreams. The first dream took me into some kind of large classroom with a stage down below. A guy was projecting things on a screen at the stage level. I turned to guy on my left side, "Excuse me, but I'm new here. What is the class about?" He just ignored me, despite my efforts. Turned to the guy on the other side. He complained about how terrible the housing was and told me it was some new kind of video game. The guy at the screen was moving around a paddle-like control and it was interacting with screen and also showing itself on the display. It was some kind of really complicated technology that didn't make sense. We laughed about not being interested. Then he starting trying to do something with one of my front teeth, pushing really hard on it which I could feel. I complained about the pain. "Sorry, I just went ahead and started working on your tooth." Told him it felt like he was breaking it. "No I'm not a breaker." He says.

Just flowed out of that dream and back to being awake, then back into another dream where I was walking with a young lady who claimed she was my daughter, but I didn't recognize her. She took my hand and we walked along through stone covered streets in an old city. She asked me if I could help her find some kind of mind-altering substance. She didn't know the exact name, but it was referred to as super tomatoes or high energy tomatoes or something like that. Then I said, "I also have something I want to tell you about. I'm actually trying it now, it's called Galantamine and Choline and it's how I got here with you" Woke up before we could go any further but it was interesting to tell a DC about G and C.

It was really an interesting experience because the lucid dreams were so close to just thoughts and so easy to move into.

The transitions are nice when they smooth out and the suddenness of just being there if it is a WILD is stunning.

I like the level of awareness that comes with using G & C combinations and the dreams become another life or another place with the level of interaction.

Your control must be good as you still need a reasonable level of ability to extend the dreams and to come in and out with intent.

Peter wrote: The transitions are nice when they smooth out and the suddenness of just being there if it is a WILD is stunning.

What I noticed was that I was just kind of riding along on the edge, right at the transition point. Normally you just pass through that point fairly quickly, but it was like just hanging out right there. you can just play around there, and move in and out fairly easily. A slight bit of intention can make the shift, it's like the control is much finer. But the really amazing part was how awake I still felt the entire time while going from dream to awake and back to dream again.

Peter wrote: I like the level of awareness that comes with using G & C combinations and the dreams become another life or another place with the level of interaction.

This time was a distinctively different level of awareness, very unique feel to it, although the dreams didn't have much depth. I think that's also because I got in a bit on the late side after almost 8 hours of sleep. I've read that they are suppose to peak at 1 hour, but that's not correct for me. Think it would be better to take them at 0300 instead of 0400 because it takes 2-3 hours for me to get to the right state. This is the second time that's happened so next time I will start earlier.

Peter wrote: Your control must be good as you still need a reasonable level of ability to extend the dreams and to come in and out with intent.

I was working on the in and out control which is course much easier with G and C because of the extended slow transition. It gives you the chance to spend more time practicing that because you are just hanging out on the edge. Still haven't been able to extend the time on these yet but I still think that's partially because of not getting in earlier. Will try again in around a week.

But the really amazing part was how awake I still felt the entire time while going from dream to awake and back to dream again.

Its so smooth that you wonder why you can always be like that, as simple as breathe in (there) breathe out (awake( and so on. It is amazing and more so when you get the fact that you have control of it and are not a victim like in FA's. The shift is easy and seamless.

I think the peak is about one hour but depending on dehydration and your metabolism that could change. I am steady at about one hour till i get the feelings of it all coming on but can miss the entry if I go to sleep and get lucid a little later in the morning sometimes. I want to try taking 8mg and then at about 50 minutes another cap and see if that extends it - and then not sure if I really want to either. The awareness is more like total immersion where you are complete and in another world and really you are. Whatever it is, in you mind or out or a mixture you are in another place and its a wonderland.

I use the stuff every couple of weeks, would be weekly but have a lot on and with crazy hours I put sleep and health first but I do have very real vivid dreams every night and dont feel the need for much more a lot of the time. They are just as real but without the same control.

In thinking about it you are really tapping into something that is there and does not need you to exist so the flow in and out should be that easy all the time but we all know thats not the case.

Keep at it and keep posting on this, its making me think a bit and I like following what you are doing

Peter wrote: Its so smooth that you wonder why you can always be like that, as simple as breathe in (there) breathe out (awake( and so on. It is amazing and more so when you get the fact that you have control of it and are not a victim like in FA's. The shift is easy and seamless.

To me WILD feels like trying to land an airplane on the dream runway. Normally that runway is pretty small and the angle of descent seems steep. With G and C, it's like you are flying level over the runway which is now about a thousand times longer. You can land easily and gently, and then take off again, land again. The runway is just sitting there below you and you have really fine control to land. That's about the best way I can describe it.

Peter wrote: I think the peak is about one hour but depending on dehydration and your metabolism that could change. I am steady at about one hour till i get the feelings of it all coming on but can miss the entry if I go to sleep and get lucid a little later in the morning sometimes. I want to try taking 8mg and then at about 50 minutes another cap and see if that extends it - and then not sure if I really want to either.

I read somewhere that G has a peak of 1 hour, but 2 hours for C. Of course there are other factors as you say.

Peter wrote: The awareness is more like total immersion where you are complete and in another world and really you are. Whatever it is, in you mind or out or a mixture you are in another place and its a wonderland.

Are you noticing a difference in the quality of the dreams? I haven't that yet, but my LDs are already just like what you described so I'm wondering if they could get much better. I experience total separation between my "self" and the dream world just like waking life and have amazing experiences while making mental notes to myself and thinking about my "day life" during the dreams.

Peter wrote: I use the stuff every couple of weeks, would be weekly but have a lot on and with crazy hours I put sleep and health first but I do have very real vivid dreams every night and dont feel the need for much more a lot of the time. They are just as real but without the same control.

So far I haven't experienced any greater control in the LDs, but I haven't had any long ones yet. The main thing has been a huge increase of control at the entry point which is always the trickiest part for WILD. As far as using them often, my only fear is not physical, but psychological dependence. I feel the need to make sure between using them that I still have at least one LD without them in between. That's just me though and others may not find that necessary.

Peter wrote: In thinking about it you are really tapping into something that is there and does not need you to exist so the flow in and out should be that easy all the time but we all know thats not the case.

Keep at it and keep posting on this, its making me think a bit and I like following what you are doing

It's definitely an exercise in exploration of another world for me too. That's the main reason why I do it. Will keep posting here on any new G and C attempts.

Used the supplements again last night, took them at 0210 hoping to get more out of the experience. Stayed awake for 2 hours, then things started getting moving. HI started picking up with assorted visuals and sounds. There was a repeating sound like aluminum foil crinkling that went on for a several minutes. I popped into a dream which was me taking the supplements so I didn't recognize it as a dream. In the dream, I had taken them and was staggering around this room, amazed at the effect thinking to myself "maybe I took too much, this is stronger than I thought." Woke up from that and found everything back to normal, all of the intensity was imagined. Then, soon after HI started again and I could see the entry point coming up. I imagined standing up on my bed and falling backwards onto it. That surprised me, it was really intense. There was a flood of intense feelings and felt like I was separating from the reality of my physical bed. Then I decided to try to leave my body and rise up out of it. That was even more intense, felt a complete separation and leaving my body floating upward, but freaked out and woke up. I expected to be in a similar mental state when I woke up, but was completely back to normal with no effects at all. That showed me that the supplements weren't controlling me, I was in control, they were just intensifying the experience. Big difference. Anyway, got upset with myself at that point, for blowing a perfectly fantastic OBE and it took quite a while before getting back to the entry point again. The next opportunity came and I started walking down a hallway right into a lucid dream. Soon there were other DCs around me and I started flying above them, asking them if they wanted me to pick them up to fly with me. Quite a few were really obese and started wondering whether I would be pulled back to the ground with them. Fortunately, the heavy ones refused to go. Finally one agreed so I grabbed her and started flying around with her. That was fun until I decided to try flipping over on my back and flying upside down which resulted in a crash landing. Woke up from that. No other LDs after that, but I did have an extended period of great music playing with someone singing strange lyrics which I can't remember, but made me laugh at times.

So what I learned this time was that G and C can really increase the intensity of the HI, entry point and dreams, but only after you get to the starting point. You still have to get there. They don't do that part for you. They don't help you get to sleep which I already knew, but they don't even effect your waking mind state so if you don't get relaxed and your mind is still going at the waking state level, they aren't going to change that. They really are enhancements, not some kind of lucid dream pills. Because of the increase in intensity it's easy to conclude that G and C are controlling the experience, but that's not true. You are still in complete control although everything you are imagining is more intense.

All in all, it was another really interesting and entertaining experience and so far 3 out of 4 times resulted in LDs. None of them were very long so far. One of the most interesting parts of using them is playing around at the entry stage. And also knowing that you have all the same level, or even more control with G and C.