OBE vs. Lucid vs. Astral Project
Hey everyone! I've been doing some research on astral projection (which sounds badasss) and of course I have noticed that it is incredibly similar to lucid dreaming, as is the process used to induce it. Also, I am confused as to what the difference between an OBE and a lucid dream is, because the article written about it on this website didn't clarify it for me at all really lol it made the two sound identical.So basically I would just like to hear everyone and anyone's thoughts on the three of these phenomenon and their relation to each other. I'd like to get all of this sorted out so I can focus on one of them (assuming lucid dreaming since it is obviously real, not miss-perceived as astral projecting may be). Please include any evidence you can, since I can find groundless opinions all over the internet. For example, youtube videos strongly saying astral projection is LEGIT, and others talking about it in a way that sounds exactly like a dream.
My experience is my only guide and that tells me that they are all different ways to enter a Lucid dream. They start off appearing different by in short time I am in a dream, either that or I have never had all three experiences
It is my opinion that they are all lucid dreams, but the difference is how vivid they are and how aware you are of your physical body during the experience.
I've had lucid dreams that are very much a dream state. I don't feel like I have a body and am watching and controlling it much like watching a television.
Then there are others that feel like I am in a different dimension. I can touch things, hold things. All my senses are activated and I meet people that seem sentient and live in that realm. (Which may be labeled as astral projection)
However, I think they are all forms of lucid dreaming and the different words to label them are used to describe how intense the 'reality' of it can be.
I've never had an out of body experience though. I have become lucid while in bed before though and gotten up and walked around, but that is more like a lucid false awakening. I looked back at my bed and didn't see a body or anything. And I keep hearing about a 'silver embilical cord' that other OBE'ers say connects you to your physical body, but I don't know if that happens to everybody.
In conclusion, I think they are labels to describe the intensity and style of the lucid dream experience. And it could be cultural as well. Different cultures have different wording for it all.
Thats what I have been thinking too. I am hoping that somebody will post on here about how they think they are DIFFERENT, because I would like that perspective too. I'm just curious how in an Astral Projection attempt, nobody reality checks or anything lol.
KylePK wrote: I'm just curious how in an Astral Projection attempt, nobody reality checks or anything lol.
I am no expert and my opinions are groundless (which I know you don't want...)
But if you have a WAKE INDUCED LUCID DREAM (which I suppose expert astral projecters do) than there is no need to do a reality check. It's pretty obvious because there was no lapse in consciousness.
KylePK wrote: But if you have a WAKE INDUCED LUCID DREAM (which I suppose expert astral projecters do) than there is no need to do a reality check. It's pretty obvious because there was no lapse in consciousness.
I've only had no lapse in consciousness once and to me that was the best lucid dream experience. Yes there is no need to do an reality check, you never have a question about the fact you are dreaming. But I've lots of other WILD experiences where there was a brief lapse. That's also really cool too because you "pop" right into a 3D, high definition, color world in a split second. I do an RC, but it's hardly needed.
It's hard to say which is better, but I think when there are two distinct things going on separately: 1. The dream 2. The conscious observer. And each goes on independant of the other, then you must say this is at least an out-of-body experience.
HAGART wrote: But if you have a WAKE INDUCED LUCID DREAM (which I suppose expert astral projecters do) than there is no need to do a reality check. It's pretty obvious because there was no lapse in consciousness. But a reality check in an Astral Projection would do nothing if it was indeed an true Astral Projection and not a Lucid Dream, so you would know you weren't just dreaming; you would know you were indeed outside your body in spiritual or pure-consciousness form and free to roam the astral realm.
lucidinthe sky wrote: It's hard to say which is better, but I think when there are two distinct things going on separately: 1. The dream 2. The conscious observer. And each goes on independant of the other, then you must say this is at least an out-of-body experience.
Yes! That clears up OBE vs Lucid Dream for me. Kinda sucks though, being out of body but merely observing. I still have a hard time myth busting astral projection though. I know people who swear it is completely different than lucid dreaming.
they want it to be as if fits some belief system and spirtual practise. Thats their issue and not based in the reality that I live in
Peter wrote: they want it to be as if fits some belief system and spirtual practise. Thats their issue and not based in the reality that I live in
I take it you're referring to "astral projection". If so, I completely agree. I think it's possible to have these experiences, but they are your own and you are in your own reality frame, just like you are during a dream. Still interesting, but people need to go easy on the outrageous unproven claims.
As far as I know, no one has proven that they can interact with the physical world that we all know during one of these so-called astral projection experiences. As far as I know, no one has succesfully proven it to be possible.
I'd like to believe that maybe when we leave this life we will able to travel to other dimensions, or create them, who knows. No one has been able to report back so we'll just have to wait and see.
KylePK wrote: you would know you were indeed outside your body in spiritual or pure-consciousness form and free to roam the astral realm.
I don't believe in a spiritual, astral realm. Sometimes it can truly feel that way. But I have never been to the same place twice and never met the same people again which leads me to believe that it was just a very powerful hallucination of my mind. However that state of consciousness is definitely real, but I don't believe I actually travel anywhere outside my own,... albeit..., incredible imagination.
Yeah, thats how I am beginning to feel. Which is kinda saddening, because despite my unending amazement at the power of lucid dreams, I still wish that it was possible to visit another realm outside our plane of existence.
The way I see it is if there is another plane outside this existence, the person you are right now cannot experience it in this form, as to experience it and think about it would require a brain and a mind, its a physical process. You wouldnt remember anything when you get back to our normal plane because how could information cross over? You would be a different person, a different being. In order to understand these things you first have to fully udnerstand Identity, something I think we have barely touched on.
Anyway I take the term OBE literally, its an out of body experience, you are not necessarily outside of your body, but you are experiencing something that feels like you are outside of a body. For instance in lucid dreams some of them you have a body and you do stuff, those aren't OBEs. However there are some people here who have had lucid or even non lucid dreams where you dont have a body, you are simply your environment. In my opinion anything that you experience where you dont have a body is an OBE.
Astral Projection however takes this further and says the location of your experience is literally outside of your objective/real physical body and is in a real/objective astral plane. I am very sceptical about this.
However here is something to ponder on an unrelated note, where are our experiences? If I am talking to a friend, is his experience of looking at me sitting right across from me, physically, in his head, and I jsut cant see it?
Another mind bender that gets stranger the more you think about, where is the universe?
OBE... LD... AP...
They only describe the "how" you enter the non-physical and in some cases "how" you describe that which you've experienced.
There are really no fundamental differences between them beyond how aware you are during the experience.
With that said, don't get caught up in labeling your experiences, just enjoy them. :)
Hurricane, Cyclone, Typhoon... They are all different labels of the same thing and each individual one is different when it comes to air speed, rotation, and size. So too are our lucid dream experiences and what people want to call it.
Jack Reacher wrote: In order to understand these things you first have to fully udnerstand Identity
Yea, self identity in a dream can be vague sometimes and during a very real, lucid dream I know EXACTLY who I am. (well, do you truly know who you are or are you the product of how others perceive you.... Is our identity just a figment of your own imagination?) But whatever my 'identity' sometimes I am aware of it and other times (as in most non-lucid dreams) I don't have a sense of self.
Jack Reacher wrote: where are our experiences?
I have pondered where our minds are. They cannot be measured by science. They have no weight, don't reflect light, make no sound. In fact they cannot interact with the physical world at all. The brain is physical, but the mind that is the product of all those synapses and electrical currents doesn't exist physically. BUT THE 'I' INSIDE ME FEELS SO REAL! Where are our minds, memories and experiences? Maybe there IS another plane of existence....
A lot of people think that sense of individuality we feel is just a mechanism to help us survive in the world; an illusion created by the complex brain. I'd hate for this to be true. But it is possible and plausible. I'd also hate to think that lucid dreaming and astral projection are the same damn thing. I mean, really, the fact that there are various terms to describe one thing bothers me. I hate to be that guy who labels things, but the labels we give these experiences define them; illusion vs reality. And of course, which is which, what is reality as opposed to illusion? But without getting to philosophic, astral projection is claimed to be external. Outside, in another realm, where you can encounter other beings existing outside that realm, who exist there even if you are present. Lucid dreaming is an illusion, it happens within the mind and none of the beings we encounter there are real, or even sentient (or are they...), and as soon as the dream ends, its over for them too. As magnificent as Lucid Dreaming is, I can't help to feel a bit of dissapointment at the possibility that astral projection isn't different. Because I want to explore something outside my own mind. I feel that astral projection would teach me much more about the universe than lucid dreaming. I feel that astral projection might lead me to more truth than lucid dreaming. I dont know. Hahaha.
Learn to leave expectations at the door and just dream away. The labels are not important and it does not matter if they are the same or different. Just get in there and explore like a kid in an incream shop, who cares what flavor you are trying, dont seek a flavor just taste them all and they are without limit.
In fact DO this in you next lucid dream, find a shop and taste away.
Peter wrote: In fact DO this in you next lucid dream, find a shop and taste away.
My lucid dreams are too rare xD If I manage to lucid dream soon, I will spend it training my subconscious to promote lucid dreaming and to accept it, so my chances of having them increase. I basically need to tell my subconscious to "pop" into the dreamscape whenever I get vibrations... thats my only problem. Once I solve that, I will taste all the flavors :D
its very hard and I think the way you or I choose to get lucid matters less that the fact we believe in it and that promotes the intent. I change how and what I do a lot and this seems to work, its like the SC needs soe new stimulus to get active again. I like WILD best as there is no need to for any checks at all but it is a very hard way to get consistancy, but you do get 100% hits if you get there as there is no doubt you are dreaming.
Yeah, WILD is my main goal right now. I will have quite clear dreams, vivid and realistic, where I will consider the idea that I could be dreaming, or sometimes I dream of lucid dreaming INSIDE. I have dreams within dreams too. But I have a really hard time becoming lucid from within a dream, so I focus on WILD.
Another one of these threads?
Let me start by saying that dreams are what you perceive in your mind during sleep i.e. thoughts, images, sounds, emotions etc.
Lucid dreams is when individuals are aware of the mental state in which they are actually in (that they are dreaming). In so many words, you are awake in your sleep as critical faculties of the mind are active and thus make you fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming.
Beyond this there is nothing else other than the different ways in which you can enter the same state of consciousness. You either get a WILD or a DILD. OOBEs, where an individual seemingly separates from the physical body from a waking point, are nothing but WILDs that include such illusion.
There is no such thing as a real out-of-body state i.e. where consciousness as a floating point is really outside of the physical body. There is no astral projection either as this connotes the existence of astral planes populated by discarnate beings (namely the spirits of the dead) and let's face it - our dreaming minds are quite capable of concocting such scenario.
One more time: there is only lucid dreaming :roll:
Summerlander wrote: One more time: there is only lucid dreaming :roll:
No offense, but that wasn't really the point of this thread lol. Anyone can state their opinion as fact, I posted on here in hope of finding some different perspectives and ideas about the three. I've read plenty of work that claims what you claim, and I've read plenty that claims astral projection is legit. Another empty claim is going to solve nothing.
I think the basis question is what do you want it to be and what is it. We can all answer the first one and back it up with our own experiences and opinions but no one can solve the second question at this stage. We could all get tested in sleep labs and there might be a common element like we were all in REM sleep at the time of the lucid dream and astral projection but that still does not resolve anything as during the day we all show similar brainwave patterns (we are awake and conscious) and look at the massive variation of human experience in any given day. The state of mind during these experiences is one question and the experience itself is another. People are so strong in what they believe. With a lifetime of (ahhhhh here we go) exploring the dreaming state and all manner of experiences Its only in recent times I knew there was a name for it and now find people arguing about the states. Its as bad as debating on how to pronounce a word, just splitting hairs for ego a lot of the time
I have yet to encounter anyone who acknowledges Lucidity and Astral Projection as being separate. I suppose that is the perspective I really wanted. To hear from the perspective of someone who could first hand separate the two experiences.
In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it.
In my case, let me tell you, it is not about me having an opinion based on what I've read which I suddenly decided it sounded good to me. I have actually done my homework. In half a decade of practice and intense experience, I have found nothing but the evidence of becoming fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming, aka lucid dreaming.
Believe me, I have also been curious and tested methods purporting to help individuals achieve "astral projection" or even real out-of-bodies. All these methods landed me in the same state that I was already familiar with: lucid dreaming. Whether I experienced vibrations, sleep paralysis, energy waves or not - and these are only sensations that indicate one is transitioning from one state of consciousness to another - I always lucidly entered the same dreamland.
This is the truth as far as I can tell.
If you wish to separate and categorise the phenomenon, then it will be separate in your mind - and you are quite welcome to experience whatever reality you prefer as the lucid state will emulate this for you (as it will play upon your biases).
I know you don't want to hear it now but all I was offering was the truth.
Insidious was a load of cobblers... :mrgreen:
I tihnk its a bit much to say he favoured that view, he simply wanted to hear a perspective from both sides.
If he didn't favour the view, it is something similar as he just said and I quote verbatim:
I have yet to encounter anyone who acknowledges Lucidity and Astral Projection as being separate. I suppose that is the perspective I really wanted. To hear from the perspective of someone who could first hand separate the two experiences.
Why does he want to hear from someone who separates the phenomenon? If not "favouring" then what is it? Curiosity? Or perhaps hope:
I posted on here in hope of finding some different perspectives and ideas about the three.
Hmmm... :?
I think the last quote pretty much answers your own question...
Look at it this way, suppose you just found out about religion, about the concept of God. You wanted to hear what people had to say. You wouldn't want to just talk to Atheists as that would give you a biased opinion, you would also want to seek out someone who had a different perspective, someone who did believe in God. Just because you seek out the other group doesn't mean you are favoring them at all. Anyway il let him speak for himself.
Summerlander wrote: In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it.
In my case, let me tell you, it is not about me having an opinion based on what I've read which I suddenly decided it sounded good to me. I have actually done my homework. In half a decade of practice and intense experience, I have found nothing but the evidence of becoming fully conscious and self-aware while dreaming, aka lucid dreaming.
Believe me, I have also been curious and tested methods purporting to help individuals achieve "astral projection" or even real out-of-bodies. All these methods landed me in the same state that I was already familiar with: lucid dreaming. Whether I experienced vibrations, sleep paralysis, energy waves or not - and these are only sensations that indicate one is transitioning from one state of consciousness to another - I always lucidly entered the same dreamland.
This is the truth as far as I can tell.
If you wish to separate and categorise the phenomenon, then it will be separate in your mind - and you are quite welcome to experience whatever reality you prefer as the lucid state will emulate this for you (as it will play upon your biases).
I know you don't want to hear it now but all I was offering was the truth.
Insidious was a load of cobblers... :mrgreen:
THIS is what I was honestly waiting for. See, this actually helps because you said you have done your fair share of attempts that all led you back to one thing; lucid dreaming. However, you are wrong at the very beginning, by saying --- "In that case, KylePK, you are not really looking for what's factual it seems, but rather, to hear from someone the perspective that you favour the most. It seems this is about what you want rather than assessing the evidence fairly and getting to the bottom of it." I just haven't heard more than 1 primary perspective, that's why I wanted to hear the astral projectors perspective. I hadn't seen or encountered enough evidence to disprove astral projecting, only a hunch that it was indeed merely dreaming. This hunch was however supported by watching astral projectors on youtube describing astral projection EXACTLY like dreaming. Its almost as if they were unaware of Lucid Dreaming, and just assumed the phenomenon was astral projection. But anyway, thank you for giving me such an extensive response. That definitely helped to answer my question!
Jack Reacher wrote: I think the last quote pretty much answers your own question...
Look at it this way, suppose you just found out about religion, about the concept of God. You wanted to hear what people had to say. You wouldn't want to just talk to Atheists as that would give you a biased opinion, you would also want to seek out someone who had a different perspective, someone who did believe in God. Just because you seek out the other group doesn't mean you are favoring them at all. Anyway il let him speak for himself.
Freaking thank you dude hahaha you understood my stance completely. :D
Yes, Jack Reacher pretty much helped me to understand your stance... and the stance is not a crime either. It's very human. I apologise if I came across as a little aggressive there, KylePK. I once was curious too.
I also thought that there was something more, that it wasn't just lucid dreaming... hence the moniker "Summerlander" from having had an amazing experience where I went to Summerland ("upper astral" in Theosophist/Spiritualist/New Age literature).
I left my body and went through a mirror that led me to another world. I saw cottages like out of a fairy tale land. I saw rows of well-groomed trees, a river, a golden city, it was so colourful and beautiful and I felt so much love and harmony. But today I see that my lucid dreaming mind was playing on the idea of a higher heaven.
Summerlander wrote: I also thought that there was something more, that it wasn't just lucid dreaming... hence the moniker "Summerlander" from having had an amazing experience where I went to Summerland ("upper astral" in Theosophist/Spiritualist/New Age literature).
I left my body and went through a mirror that led me to another world. I saw cottages like out of a fairy tale land. I saw rows of well-groomed trees, a river, a golden city, it was so colourful and beautiful and I felt so much love and harmony. But today I see that my lucid dreaming mind was playing on the idea of a higher heaven.
That sounds amazing! And you were fully conscious there, as if it was waking life? It amazes me that people can lucid dream like that. That is my goal. To induce a dream so realistic that it can easily be mistaken for reality, whenever I please.
I feel that is where the issues come from in deciding what is what. Like Summerlander I have had hundreds if not thousands of lucid dreams and obe's and astrals etc( whatever you want to call them) and they are all real and after time they are another life and another reality just like this one but with a few different rules and it this experiences that forms our opinions and why they are so strong at times and why I think it is all exploration of another state of mind and the terms are just annoying and box off rather than enhance this exploration.
Image
It had such an impact on me I had to draw it ^^^
I still refer to it as my Summerland experience today!
a nice warm scene, thanks for sharing
Summerlander wrote: Image
It had such an impact on me I had to draw it ^^^
I still refer to it as my Summerland experience today!
Holy shit, thats incredible. The drawing that is. What you actually saw must have been just... wowza.
It was. I was even more freaked out when, in a book about the afterlife, the spirits of the dead were allegedly telling their loved ones where they were through a medium. Cottages, rainbows and bright colours came up. I read this a few weeks after the experience. The experience itself had such an impact on me that its memory will remain with me forever... unless I bump my head hard enough. :mrgreen:
The drawing is just a poor depiction by comparison. What I saw was incredible. I wanted to live there forever. It seemed mind-expanding too (apart from a sense of harmony). It was truly psychedelic. Shame we always have to leave these incredible worlds. On this occasion, I had apparently separated from the body (rather than becoming lucid while dreaming) and then went through a mirror which unexpectedly led me there.
It would be hard to define differences between LD's, astral projection, and OBE's unless you have a spiritual belief system that supports the existence of the latter two; whereas, LD's are more generally accepted as just something cool our brains are capable of doing while we sleep. I have many spiritually minded friends who run the gamut of religious beliefs from super conservative Christians to New Agers. The Christian friend that I tried talking to about this stuff got very uncomfortable and just changed the subject, even though I didn't attribute any spirituality to it - just kept it purely scientific. One New Age friend in particular insists that my most recent experience was an OBE, but I just don't buy it. If the definition of an OBE is to be out of your body, floating around the real world, then my experience of sitting up in my bed and walking around and then entering a dreamscape world that is nothing like reality makes it definitely not an OBE. I agree with Peter about it being what you want it to be.
beadietux wrote: If the definition of an OBE is to be out of your body, floating around the real world, then my experience of sitting up in my bed and walking around and then entering a dreamscape world that is nothing like reality makes it definitely not an OBE. I agree with Peter about it being what you want it to be.
I believe that lucid dreams where you experience a total separation between you the thinking, decision making and conscious individual and the dream world surroundings is an OBE, but then in waking we are also experiencing basically the same thing.
Summerlander wrote: It was. I was even more freaked out when, in a book about the afterlife, the spirits of the dead were allegedly telling their loved ones where they were through a medium. Cottages, rainbows and bright colours came up. I read this a few weeks after the experience. The experience itself had such an impact on me that its memory will remain with me forever... unless I bump my head hard enough. :mrgreen:
The drawing is just a poor depiction by comparison. What I saw was incredible. I wanted to live there forever. It seemed mind-expanding too (apart from a sense of harmony). It was truly psychedelic. Shame we always have to leave these incredible worlds. On this occasion, I had apparently separated from the body (rather than becoming lucid while dreaming) and then went through a mirror which unexpectedly led me there.
Great picture! Thanks for sharing it. Gives me hope and encouragement since I already believe we will be experiencing these kinds of worlds when we leave this life. In fact , I think we will be collectively creating them which is even more exciting.