LD entry points
I have now had just over 100 LDs and noticed in my opinion 4 distinct entry points. Curious what your experiences are. First are spontaneously knowing I am dreaming without any obvious triggers. Second are dream signs...something obviously in conflict with reality. Third is reality checks where I really would not have realized the dream state without it. Fourth are WILD related...was just awake and didnt loose all conscienceness. Curious your experience
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Think that about covers it nicely, I cant add anymore.
What works best for you and why or what do you do to get the effects and then the dreams ?
To be honest, I have tried all sorts of induction stuff, but it stil just seems to happen. I THINK just doing it is making it more likely. I think more dream signs are showing up in my dreams, as if my subconscience is trying to cooperate with my conscience desire to LD. I am hoping my awareness to recognise them will then increase too.
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rothgar wrote: I have now had just over 100 LDs and noticed in my opinion 4 distinct entry points. Curious what your experiences are. First are spontaneously knowing I am dreaming without any obvious triggers. Second are dream signs...something obviously in conflict with reality. Third is reality checks where I really would not have realized the dream state without it. Fourth are WILD related...was just awake and didnt loose all conscienceness. Curious your experience
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I would sort of lump the second and third together since for me the recognition of the dream sign causes the reality check, otherwise it's spontaneous which is back to the first. Then there is WILD, which supposedly has 2 entry points, with one being through OOBE. This morning I believe I experienced OOBE without being in a dream but did not enter the dream from that point. The OOBE experience was interesting because I was just floating around in an empty room with this Indian music with sitars playing very clearly in the background. It was interesting. Still curious about that method of entry but can't say for sure I've done it that way.
Lucidinthesky...
Can you elaborate on OOBE? How did it hapoen and what made it different?
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rothgar wrote: Lucidinthesky...
Can you elaborate on OOBE? How did it hapoen and what made it different?
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This is new territory for me so it may be a little difficult to explain. It was the first time I had the experience of being out-of-body without being in a lucid dream. (I consider lucid dreams to be OOBEs since I often think about my body in the bed and my dream body is in another place entirely)
During a WILD attempt in the A.M. hours a dream scene appeared, although I really felt pretty much awake, but in some in-between state. So I walked into the scene and tried to approach some machinery that was there. Right before getting there, the room suddenly emptied and I started floating around, felt really wonderful and the indian music started playing. But that feeling of still being conscious and awake was there. Had sleep paralysis for sure, I had some panic/fear and tried to move body, but couldn't. The whole thing was really weird and got too uncomfortable since I also still felt partially awake, sort of stuck in an in between state. As I said, this is my first time experiencing this. Usually I go straight into the dream scene and lose total awareness of waking state, this felt almost like a deep meditation although it would be deeper than I've ever gone. Hope that makes sense, still trying to get a handle on it.
I mentioned my 4 entry points... one thing I was hoping to discover was that over time one method would predominate...i.e.that one method would represent the entry point in a more skilled DILD dreamer and the others become less frequent. However, thats not been the case. I never know which method will be operative. However, interestingly, in nights with multiple LDs the same method usually operates. If I spontaneously know, the one or two others that night are spontaneous. If dream sign triggers, then others are too. I thought spontaneous would predominate, but a few days ago I had 3 dream sign triggers. So far I cannot draw a conclusion. And by the way, I do sometimes RC without any dream sign or thought I am dreaming...that really shocks you when you realize you are dreaming. But to be clear I really mean an anomoly type dream sign...something definitely wrong. I may RC when going toward a bathroom as trying to find a bathroom is technically a dream sign for me but not necessarily an anomoly. Guess I differentiate the two.
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rothgar wrote: And by the way, I do sometimes RC without any dream sign or thought I am dreaming...that really shocks you when you realize you are dreaming.
Yes, I know that for sure. I remember one time thinking to myself how silly these RCs are since I always already know I am awake and so tired of doing these STUPID things!!! and what's point of doing them anyway? But of course, yeah yeah, I'll do it anyway, because that's what you are supposed to do. I looked down at my hand and it had 6 fingers. It shocked me so much I woke up. Totally unexpected!
rothgar wrote: mentioned my 4 entry points... one thing I was hoping to discover was that over time one method would predominate...i.e.that one method would represent the entry point in a more skilled DILD dreamer and the others become less frequent.
For me, the method that predominates determines what needs to be done to make it happen. For example, when I rely on WILD which I have been lately I don't do many RCs because they are not needed. When I was trying to do DILD, then I did a lot of RCs and thinking about dream signs, etc. as that is necessary. So the method you focus on determines a lot of what you do. In any case, I do spend a lot of time and energy focusing on believing and repeating that my "next dream will be a lucid dream", etc.
There is a way to be lucid in your dreams right from the start and the WILD method is starting point to learn how to do it. That's what I'm trying to learn, not how to control the dream, but how to control the entry point. Ideally (and I have have done it) you watch and are present and aware as the dream world unfolds, then you step into that world like going through a curtain. To me that's the ultimate entry.
At least half of my lucids are WILD and it is extremely easy and so difficult at the same time. Catching the point of transition from wake to sleep or REM is an instant but in time it gets a little easier.
Find you own way but listen to you body and mind and learn to become the observer of yourself, your thoughts and feelings and take careful note of each little step along the way. Sometimes it is as easy as waking up in the morning and there is no need for supplements of any kind even though I do use them I can do as well without.
A Lucid says, practice the entry to the LD and that skill will carry on into the dream and then go explore the wonderland
Peter wrote: At least half of my lucids are WILD and it is extremely easy and so difficult at the same time.
Yes, it's difficult unless you do it right, then it's easy. Every time I do it right I say to myself: "That was easy" so what's the problem?
But what was it that I did that made it easy? That's the hard part. Its a new skill to learn, but somehow it doesn't come from the same place and is not the same way you learn to do other things. The methods are different and are activated from some other location. There are new controls to find and learn to operate. I'm still trying to find them, eventually I turn the right knobs, but always have to find my way back to them almost at random.
There are a few things that I think are needed and one is to be rested first. I have WILD's in the afternoons, early evening and WBTB and always fail if I am tired.
The second is a absolutely rock solid intent to make it work and the contradiction to this is to relax enough to observe the process as it happens. My thought is that all we are doing is going to sleep as we do every night and if we follow this with some detached observation we will drop into a REM sleep and then be lucid.
I try for each step and then when I am solid at that stage work on the next so its a slow methodical learning process that fails a lot. It is worth it but I would say for the early stages of lucid dreaming to keep at DILD or WBTB with reality checks and you will have better success.
Peter wrote: The second is a absolutely rock solid intent to make it work and the contradiction to this is to relax enough to observe the process as it happens.
That is the heart of the matter. It usually only happens for me when the intent/will is at what feels like the limit. That "rock solid intent" you reference is more than just desiring/trying etc. It's a "make it happen" function. It takes all of this intent/will but I wonder if that's just because we are not very efficient yet.
It takes all of this intent/will but I wonder if that's just because we are not very efficient yet.
I tend to think you are correct but the intend is needed until the results of the intent become second nature. The point is where it is part of you and the grunty stuff is all done in the back ground and so the process is no longer needed, for now I think the intent is needed to drive away all connections to our waking senses and it is this detachment that allows the energy shift away from a meat body and then we put our consciousnesses into this energy body and away we go.
Lucid, we seem to have a similar approach to LD, although I am still doing DILD and you are now working on WILD. But I think we both find the process of how we are learning and improving fascinating..... How am I doing it? What are the steps? If I could figure it out I could train others I thought. But so far even my own advice sounds like easterm philosopy which I never before put much stock in....'try by not trying' or 'have intent without effort', or 'let go and let it happen'. I sound like Yoda training Luke! But thats the closest ways I have found to say it. I think it comes with practice but like you indicate, it is learning a skill in a way different from other skills, for sure!
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Well maybe ONE thing seems different in my dream entries.... I dont think I ever experienced anomalies triggering an LD until recently. I used to just accept the oddity. I would read in EWLD and other books about that triggering lucidity but my awareness was too low I guess to realize something is too weird to be true. But anomalies are starting to be noticed. Last night I was steering my car by pointing a steak knife in the direction I wanted to go. Usually I notice these dream signs because when I awaken I recall them clearly. So they somehow are noticed by me without triggering awareness. But last night (and other recent occurrences) I eventually said 'hey, I dont usually steer a car with a steak knife' and did become lucid. So I am HOPING my awareness is improving. My rate of LDs is up so I think so...
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It's an interesting conversation and hope it continues. I want to compare notes with others to hopefully learn to make the transition from awake to lucid dream with less effort.
What I'm focusing on now is the thought patterns that proceed HI and dream stages. They are fairly distinct and different from when I am awake. That's the first stage and transition point for me between waking and dream. Once those thoughts start, I go right into the dream stage. Trying to learn how to induce them and then go right into being lucid.
Right before the dream images start to appear, the thoughts start to become illusive and more like dreams. You can't get back what you were thinking about just a second ago. I once had a voice tell me to listen to it and what it said would put me right into a dream. The words started coming and they kind of made sense at first, but slowly turned into the kind of thoughts you have right before the dreams. Just drew me right into the dream state. That particular time I was also able to become lucid. Really wish I could remember exactly how that worked so it could be repeated. So hopefully I can learn how to create those kinds of thoughts myself.
I've experienced each of those type of 'entry points'. And I can't think of any other, yet perhaps some are very similar and can be lumped into one larger category such as all the DILD ones. Whether spontaneous, or after a RC, or from a bizarre dream sign the only difference is how long it took to convince you and how you realized, or what you did to realize. I agree that they are different. but those three are similar and perhaps part of a larger category. Then WILD is a whole other story! Could be directly into a dream, OBE, or a bout of sleep paralysis with that shadow guy. SO i can say I have experienced 7 actually and I bet there are others, but I don't know them but I am sure they can fit into the two main categories: DILD and WILD.
Anyway, there are many ways to become lucid and I actually can't think of any other entry points that I have experienced and those 4 are the main ones aren't they?
And also, no matter how much I lucid dream, sometimes I have a bizarre regular-dream and after I wake up I am completely surprised that I was not lucid. IT WAS SO OBVIOUS. Then other times I am in a dream, walking and looking at my feet and suddenly and spontaneously realize I am dreaming out of no where. NO matter how it happens and which entry point occurs whether you choose it or not, the main thing is having the right frame of mind at the time and it is still a mystery to me why it can be easy one day, and elusive the next.
Lucid, what was your motivation for switching to WILD? Was it to start LD earlier in the dream? I like DILD since I avoid SP, HH and what seems like a lot of effort. I LD 2 or 3 times a week without any real effort or time expendature. But.... I join the party late and wake up too soon. I am trying to decide if WILD would be better or just working on stabilizing and DEILD if I wake up. I wonder if people can WILD more frequently than DILD. I think so, but then either method takes real skill and right conditions I think.
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I does not matter what way we enter, WILD suits me as I am up all hours and so it is natural for me to put my effort there and If I fail at a WILD is gets me into a good sleep so I am happy either way. DILD is great but requires (for me anyway) either intent at the start and I may as well try WILD or a lot of realty checks to get the results
rothgar wrote: Lucid, what was your motivation for switching to WILD?
I always tried to WILD, but more often than not ended up having a DILD instead. A lot of times, I have a short period where I lose awareness, but if I remember what I was doing I can DILD. But for me, just doing DILD alone is too random and depends on waking up the part of you that has fallen asleep. The part of you that is creating the dream of course will never see that it's unusual because it's seeing exactly what it made in the first place, no matter how strange we might think it is. The part that recognizes that it's dream, that says that's very strange, maybe it's a dream is difficult to activate during the dream. It works better for me with WILD because that part of you never goes to sleep in the first place.
rothgar wrote: Was it to start LD earlier in the dream? I like DILD since I avoid SP, HH and what seems like a lot of effort. I LD 2 or 3 times a week without any real effort or time expendature. But.... I join the party late and wake up too soon.
Yes, getting into the dream at the start is a big advantage to WILD. You know you are going to get the maximum time out of it and since there is never enough anyway :) , you need to get everything you can. Also I've had two WILDs now where I went straight into a super completely real lucid dream after just seconds of effort. It's really my goal at this point to learn to replicate that, it is deifnitely the ultimate LD entry.
rothgar wrote: I am trying to decide if WILD would be better or just working on stabilizing and DEILD if I wake up. I wonder if people can WILD more frequently than DILD. I think so, but then either method takes real skill and right conditions I think.
It's important to do what's work best for you, but also to get the most out of it. Of course trying new things is good too.
Just wanted to report some progress on LD entry during WILD which I have been working on.
After 2 hours awake and in bed, this morning I succesfully entered the dream world that I watch form and helped to facilitate. Went through the "thoughts" phase and started HI. The dream scene started forming, then suddenly I realized it. A little voice inside said "It's ready, go in!" It looked sort of like a movie screen, but I had to make the decision to "walk into" it, then all of sudden it changed into 3D and I was inside it. It seems like I jumped the gun a bit since it was not 100% formed, but very close. The trees had these very delicate branches and tiny leaves, like those ornamental trees only much bigger. As I walked down a path did the usual reach up and grab a tree branch to test how it feels (very real). After a bit I starting flying around above this valley with house in it. There was this strange depth distortion going on, trees and house would appear to be moving in and out and distance, independant of each other and as if they wre isolated elements. Also had music playing in the background. This is the third time in a row now with music playing.
I just had my longest, clear-headed lucid last night. I have had others of similar length but this one was stable, and I was thinking just like I normally would...not like a characature of me, if you've ever had a lucid like that where you were aware and making choices but more caught up in the dream and actions not what you normally would do. My trigger was just that I noticed a dream sign...not an extraordinary amomaly but just a more common one (in my case feeling guilty I left my wife in bed without telling her where I went). I think this type of trigger is starting to be more fruitful.
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rothgar wrote: I just had my longest, clear-headed lucid last night. I have had others of similar length but this one was stable, and I was thinking just like I normally would...not like a characature of me, if you've ever had a lucid like that where you were aware and making choices but more caught up in the dream and actions not what you normally would do. My trigger was just that I noticed a dream sign...not an extraordinary amomaly but just a more common one (in my case feeling guilty I left my wife in bed without telling her where I went). I think this type of trigger is starting to be more fruitful.
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It's good that you're indentfying the trigger. I wonder sometimes if we always know we are dreaming, but just choose to ignore it so we have to kind of wake up that part of us that just pays attention to it. A lot of my more vivid dreams are becoming semi-lucid and seem on the edge of spontaneous lucidity.
rothgar wrote: I was thinking just like I normally would...not like a characature of me, if you've ever had a lucid like that where you were aware and making choices but more caught up in the dream and actions not what you normally would do.
lucidinthe sky wrote: A lot of my more vivid dreams are becoming semi-lucid and seem on the edge of spontaneous lucidity.
I was semi-lucid last night, and also fully lucid too, so I was thinking about it and compared the two. When I was semi-lucid, I knew there were no consequences and I was upset with a guy that almost brought me to tears earlier in the dream like a bully. (I am 33 years old, but in that state, I was a 'characture' of myself and felt more like a child). I decided to punch him and beat him up. Something I have never done before in waking life, it is out of character for me, but at the time I just knew there were no consequences and it would feel good. I tracked him down, and he was already in a fight with a DC from previously in the dream so I felt it was justified. I not only kicked is ass, I punched his head so hard against a wall it exploded! Then I thought, I can do that better. And I 'rewound' it like a movie and did it again to my satisfaction. I then went on a rampage and tried to create a gory 'movie'. I knew it wasn't real, and was just the director. (Judge me all you want and interpret the dream as you wish. But I get dark imagery sometimes and am not ashamed of it. I bet we all do, but just don't want to talk about it.)
Although I lost the focus of being the 'director' and started to dream 'normally' again... (if any dream is normal?!), the one I remember afterward was far more vivid and was basically a lucid dream, where you have a sense of self, and behave almost rationally, but I was not focused on myself at all and caught up in the moments of the dream as if they were real problems.
Then in the early morning, although brief and not as realistic as other lucid dreams. (Ex. I had no sense of touch, or even a body, just images and sounds). But I was fully aware of who I was, what I wanted to do in the dream and everything. I was no longer a characture of my self, or in a dream-stooper as I have been calling it. I was fully aware, and lucid.
I've been thinking and writing a lot about dream characters lately and I am starting to think that the 'I' in the dream, (ourselves), is also a dream character that follows the same principles. The 'I' or self, or some call the Ego... it changes personality and awareness of the lucid dream just as much as they do.