Sabina Spielrein, The Psychoanalyst

Here is someone you probably haven't heard of as much as Sigmund Freud or Carl Jung. And yet, she was associated with both of them and was a member of the Vienna Psychoanalytic Society.

In fact, she was one of the first female psychoanalysts and the first person to introduce the idea of "death instincts." She argued that the sexual drive contains an instinct of destruction and transformation. This is something that anticipated Freud and Jung (and indeed Freud acknowledged this in "Beyond The Pleasure Principle").

Spielrein's "Concerning The Psychological Content of a Case of Schizophrenia" was the first psychoanalytical dissertation written by a woman, and Jung was her advisor. But her most renowned work is "Destruction as The Cause of Coming Into Being." This is where she tackles the question: If sex is pleasurable, why do people repress it? Here's an excerpt from it:

"Why does this most powerful drive, the reproductive instinct, harbour negative feelings in addition to the inherently anticipated positive feelings? These negative feelings, such as anxiety and disgust, must be overcome in order to use the drive appropriately."

While Freud saw sex as a life instinct and concluded that people hold an unconscious desire to die, which is counterbalanced by life instincts, Spielrein contended that sex was a destructive force (despite the pleasure) and hence the need people felt to repress it.

Spielrein was the reason why Jung initially reached out to Freud. She was Jung's mental patient at the time, a case of "hysteria" that the young dream analyst had found particularly challenging. Whilst treating her, Jung would also teach her. Eventually, Spielrein became his colleague and would also share her ideas with Freud.

According to correspondence between the three, there is good reason to believe that Carl Jung had an affair with Sabina Spielrein. This was something that Jung, as a married man, felt extremely guilty about. In the film "A Dangerous Method," Spielrein is seen recounting to Jung how, as a little girl, her abusive father had ordered her to strip naked before spanking her as a form of punishment. Then, in a quirky twist, she confesses to Jung that she had felt excited and recoils in disgust.

This sexual drive is at first repressed, but, as her relationship with Jung progressed, she stopped fighting those urges and our famous dream analyst would find himself spanking her bottom as her father once did. Needless to say, both had fun and one can describe Carl Jung as having been a repressed polygamist rather than a true monogamist. (Spielrein hadn't been his only extramarital conquest.)

As lucid dreamers, we can't help but recall those instances where we feel horny in the dream world, a feeling that can be overpowering, and how we have abandoned any interesting plans we might have had to just relieve our tension by fulfilling our sexual fantasies. But once awake, many people feel that they have degraded themselves, feeling disappointed for having no control, or feeling weak for having fallen in temptation. This may give us an idea of what Spielrein was experiencing. (If you know more about her or would like to discuss this subject in more detail, feel free.)

Eventually they went their separate ways. Spielrein was murdered by the Nazis during WWII and Carl Jung outlived his wife Emma.

Sexual desire is rarely discussed here. We all have it and I know I explore that and try new things in lucid dreams concerning sexual desire and whatever I fantasize. I don't feel strange and think we all do this.

Sometimes I do wake up feeling like I wasted the dream with mere pleasure and nothing intelligent was gained. Or it can even make me wake up right away (a foul if you will). Or I spend the whole dream 'looking for love in all the wrong places' and nobody shows up.

(EDIT: I kept waking up in the night with regrets. I felt I said too much, so I omitted some parts of this. It goes to show just how suppressed we keep our personal sexual desires. I feel better now.)

After breaking the ice with that, let's get deep and talk about psychology.

I have questioned attractiveness. I can't explain it with logic. I happen to like find women attractive and yet the difference physically between a woman and a man is very subtle. We all have two arms, two legs, two eyes, ears, a nose, a mouth ect. But it's those very subtle differences that make all the difference.

I know a painter who paints portraits of people and knows those differences. He says a woman's nose points up just slightly more than a mans, or how the chin is narrower, or knows the proper space of the gap between the nose and upper lip ect. And that's just the face and you can tell from that without a body when it's all put together.

To bring this back to lucid dreaming, there have been times when I have looked around for the perfect woman, but I have never found one. Perfection is an idea we cannot attain. There is no perfect when it comes to physical attraction and my brother told me once, "It's those imperfections that make you fall in love."

This is from a male point of view and we males tend to use visuals. I would like to hear a female perspective from someone not too shy. No need for specifics... we are just talking psychology and lucid dreaming about one aspect in particular that make some people blush. :oops: ;) Perhaps Sabina Spielrein was that point of view and we do need both sides of the story when it comes to the human approach to this. If you just listen to Freud you won't get the whole story.

I think we need to be honest with ourselves as human beings. Spot on. Of course, talking about sex is always risky and might cause offence or disgust. Perhaps, we could, if we must mention it, talk about it in technical terms and leave out the details.

And yes, lucid dreams are private so no harm done. I didn't know what sort of response this would get but I'm glad your open-minded about it, Hagart. I'll have to review your replies more carefully tomorrow. I think Spielrein taught us all a lesson in her own way. So did Freud and Jung.

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I did stay technical without any details, (maybe I should not have elaborated on what nocturnal emission means... :oops: ) and part of me regrets ever posting anything at all. It's easy not to say anything at all, but I would be proud of someone else who admits it and speaks up.

I watched an interview with (a famous, experienced lucid dreamer) a few months ago and he mentioned being sidetracked by 'girls in bikinis'. We all do that. It's a euphemism for sexual desire and he kept it polite, but I got nothing to hide, and maybe I went too far, but unnecessary shame is something to overcome.

I have to remind myself that I did nothing wrong, and am just working on being more outspoken and truthful.

Don't feel embarassed, you are only human and at least you didn't say "wank" or something like that. At least you had the balls to come out with it. Besides, I think this thread is appropriate for that. "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:

I wish I had the balls to keep my original post. I just edited my original post, because I kept waking up feeling regrets about it. It goes to show just how hard it is to talk about, even though it's natural. We do suppress it a lot, and like to keep things secret from others. In my own head, I'm fine with it though. I just felt embarrassed knowing others all over the world could read about it.

But at least you read it and I bet a few others did to. No need for the whole world to hear about it.

What would the psychoanalysts say about me?

Summerlander wrote: "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:

Guys in Speedos! :lol:

Psychoanalysts wouldn't think any less of you and neither do I. Imagine how Sabina Spielrein felt when she confided to Carl Jung that she had felt aroused when her father spanked her. For years she felt like a freak. But calling someone names when they are unusual (and remember, your case is very common) isn't helpful. Acceptance is a way to move forward. Eventually, the quirks are no longer an issue and stop taking up much of your time.

HAGART wrote:

Summerlander wrote: "Girls in bikinis" made me laugh. I wonder what kind of euphemism a female heterosexual lucid dreamer would use... :lol:

Guys in Speedos! :lol:

LMAO! :D

Now that I omitted and edited my first post, nobody knows what I said and might think I was talking about my spanking fetishes! :oops: (My fault for that.)

I was watching Conan the other day, and he mentioned that face book allows violent videos, but has banned any breast feeding videos. What does that say about society?

You can make a video game where people are ripped in half with blood everywhere, and parents don't mind so much. But show a booby and then it becomes disgusting and unacceptable!

You can make a video game where people are ripped in half with blood everywhere, and parents don't mind so much. But show a booby and then it becomes disgusting and unacceptable!

Sex is like the unknown. It is beautiful and attractive, but people misunderstand it, and, above all, they fear it. Violence is just straight forward.

But still, why should that be about sex? Could the roots of how we view reach as far as prehistoric times? Does religion play a role? Many women died at childbirth and we finally linked pregnancy to sex. Rape has always happened. Also, sex reminds us of competition and the hope to measure up. We want to be picked, liked and we want to have fun without the risk of humiliation...

So many factors to consider if you ask me... :shock:

Let's talk about 'abnormal' fetishes to gather a bigger audience. You know you all want this. :oops: But fetishes are never abnormal are they? As long as nobody get's hurt. The whole sexual act is one big fetish.

And sexuality and fetishes are a driving force in our lives whether we know it or not. It's subliminal and subconscious. As a lucid dreamer though, exploring my own subconscious world, it keeps popping up. 90% of my lucid dreams have a sexual component of some sort. I only decline because it ruins the dream and my focus gets side tracked. (When I decline.... :oops: )

(I just went online to look up a bunch to list, but there are too many to name!)

Furries, adult baby syndrome, beastiality, bondage, and foot fetish, are the main ones.

There are so many others and some get very specific. I watched Conan (I watch him a lot), and there was a guy selling a book about obscure fetishes ranging from loving birds, to rolling in gravel, and even one case of someone who won't 'climax' unless they fall down stairs! (I'm not making that up!) I saw it on TV, so it must be true. ;)

Psychology tends to focus on sexual desire and for good reason. It's an underlying force that drives us all and influences our decisions whether we know it or not. Being a lucid dreamer, and meeting my subconscious directly, I know how sexual I truly am. 90% of the time sounds a lot, but studies show that men think of sex about that often throughout the day, but we just don't notice it.

I heard some studies that reported women think about it just as often, but they never admit it! Reading some other, older posts about the subject of sex, I think the studies might be right! :oops:

I heard some studies that reported women think about it just as often, but they never admit it!

Women are worse! :mrgreen:

But they're too shy to join this thread! Perhaps it's due to upbringing. They're told that "a proper lady doesn't think of such things".

"Only disgusting boys think of it...."

But we both know that's not true! ;)

(Then again, nobody joined this thread so all people alike are squeamish about it). But if you read about some of the top things any beginner wants to do in a lucid dream they almost always mention sex. And the girls have some dirty minds! :oops:

Their minds are dirty in fifty shades! Lol!

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What do you think about tales about gods, demigods, or other divine beings being born of virgins? Why does our conception of the divine avoid sex, and, in some cases, even promote celibacy? Far too many gods in myth, folklore, and even organised religions are born of virgins or their coming into the world of mortals doesn't involve coition as the cause. There is definitely a psychological pattern here...

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Agreed. This is worth looking into. Not to mention "72 virgins".... the list goes on!

There's an old saying: "Whoever smelt it, dealt it." :lol: What I mean by that is, look at who is obsessed with sex (or absence of) and question them why! Religion seems to be the only ones who have a problem with it!

I laugh at some of the States in America, (not all, just a few), but the ones who use religion as an excuse to deny homosexuals equal rights. Religion again pops up to promote segregation... (just recently in Arizona, I was watching John Stewart, that's where I get my informative news.... :) )

Religion, psychology, brain-washing.... I don't know where to draw a line anymore.

I'll get off my soap box....

To answer your broad question directly and tersely, **Gods are parental figures, and we don't ever want to imagine our parents having sex! **

That's why. (I hope others join in this conversation.....)

Both your posts just hit the nail on the head! In fact Freud mentioned that most people find it hard to let go of the conception of a heavenly father because they wish to have the feeling that a paternal figure is looking out for them - like the father who loves the child and is protective of them.

And the sex... bang on! :D

Back on my soap box again, and perhaps this is a little off topic, but.....

Political figures, (and religious ones too because they are cut from the same cloth), are both just actors and puppets, but they fill the human need, the human desire for a father or mother figure to care for them and make everything right. America makes fun of the Royal Family, but fail to realize they have their own in the form of the Obama's. (Maybe it's not so far off topic. It has to do with the psychological need for a parental figure to answer questions and make people feel safe while in their 'crib') That's why we created Gods and Presidents and other figure heads. Back to my earlier quote about "whoever smelt it dealt it"... another thing we never want to imagine from these larger-than-life-figures is them farting. The Pope never farts, and neither did Jesus! 8-) ;)

Now back to SEX! :oops: :lol: And of course how it pertains to lucid dreaming, and our human mind. (if we want to talk religion and politics we should go to another forum, but I can't help myself sometimes!)

You're right. We should talk abput sex, dreams and psychology in general as that pertains to Spielrein. Have you heard of Homer's Odyssey which was written in the 8th century BC? Isn't it funnt that there are so many gods squabbling and conflicting in their views and unable to decide on the fate of Odysseus. Isn't it funny that these gods are not all-knowing or omnipotent, disagree, and, if any human should wish for such higher beings to favour him, he should make the right propitiations. Hmmm...

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