Alan Worsley: Bizarre Thinking in Lucid Dreams
Alan Worsley, we all know who he is, noticed an ambiguity that sometimes presents itself in lucid dreams. In one of his studies he attempted to carry out certain tasks whilst lucid dreaming in a sleep lab. Everything was monitored. In the lucid dream, he found himself outdoors, in the rain, and, despite remembering that he was asleep in the lab and having the test in mind, he worried about the equipment getting wet. Only upon awakening did he realise how absurd his reasoning had been: How could the equipment get wet in real life when the rain and the wetness that was experienced was as phantom as his dream body?
In subsequent tests, the equipment enabled him to electrically stimulate his forearm by signalling eye movements. Whilst lucid dreaming, he experienced the electric stimuli but reasoned that it couldn't be because he was walking unattached to the machine down a dreamland road. The dream world appeared to have overthrown his logic when the electrical sensations were quite explicit and consistent with his expectations.
From this we can see why sometimes it may not be as straightforward as we think when making the distinction between dreams and lucid dreams. The sort of lucid dream reasoning Worsley describes in those lab tests is not congruous with waking state ratiocination.
Feel free to post your own experiences with this and what you think about this subject.
I have a personal example of this.
I was in a lucid dream and it faded and ended. I reminded myself that it can very easily become a false awakening because they are very common for me after a lucid dream. I opened my eyes and sure enough, it was a dream-house and I was still dreaming. However, I really wanted to write down the details of the lucid dream I had just had...
So in my twisted, dream-logic-mind, I thought if I write it down on paper in the dream, perhaps I will wake up and find the notes scribbled on the wall in my room. It made perfect sense to me at the time! Even though I knew it was a dream, the logic of it just made sense to me for some reason.
(Before I wrote anything I reminded myself that I have already tried that before in past dreams to no avail, so I was able to snap out of it.)
Sometimes I think illogically in lucid dreams despite I am 100% aware it is a dream. (I probably have more examples, but that is the first I thought of.)
Why does this happen I wonder? Just how logical do we humans think we are really when it's so easy to be fooled?
I guess that as a hybrid state lucid dreaming can still incorporate dream logic, or at least it has that potential. These lucid dreams do reminds us that lucidity not only fluctuates, but, even if it's at its fullest, it can still allow bizarre thinking. The lucid dream world can be a distraction too. I've had a similar incident with my journal, too. Thanks for providing your example, Hagart, it's much simpler than Worsley's. It will be interesting to see what is going on neurobiologically. I made a mistake above, btw, need to edit when I get time: he was walking unattached to the machine in dreamland.
EDIT: I corrected the first post.
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Because of my chosen career, I am often challenged by the uninitiated on the science of lucid dreaming. Some people don't believe it's possible or that even if it were, they couldn't prove the extent of it. (Done, already of course, but some people just... cant... science!)
One night I dreamed lucidly of a lemon tree and wanted to generate proof that I had visited that lemon tree and that it existed in exquisite detail in my dream. My lucid logic was to take a piece of fruit and hold it in my hand and bring it back to reality when I woke up. Well..... duh. I was just convinced this would work in the dream, then couldn't believe how naive this had been when I woke up.
My understanding of this is that lucid dreams are co-created experiences: the conscious mind out to pursue conscious goals, and the unconscious mind out to pursue unconscious goals. The interaction between the two creates frustration because there are conflicting agendas. And sometimes it leads to really ridiculous thinking because the unconscious mind is winning out over the conscious mind.
Given this frustration, this dancing between two realms - the rational and the bizarre - and ending up with a confusing mess of both, I wonder if lucid dreams are better when one "creator" simply submits to the other? So it can really run with its conscious intention -- or with its unconscious freedom of thought, completely unjudged and unrestricted.
I've had many lucid dreams where I did nothing (consciously) other then stabilize my lucidity. I let the dream play itself out. They were really powerful. I didnt get to do all the usual favorites (like flying, eating, sex, etc) but these were the dreams I ended writing about most graphically the next day..... and have stuck with me more profoundly ever since.
Rebecca wrote: My understanding of this is that lucid dreams are co-created experiences: the conscious mind out to pursue conscious goals, and the unconscious mind out to pursue unconscious goals. The interaction between the two creates frustration because there are conflicting agendas. And sometimes it leads to really ridiculous thinking because the unconscious mind is winning out over the conscious mind.
I often write in my dream journal that I had a 'mental tug o war'. There is no right or wrong, but there are two ways to perceive the same thing and it bounces back and forth and it is not a lucid dream but a 'night musing' as I call it. It makes no sense and it's a night of confusion. This sounds crazy but even one of your articles was about famous scientists that dream and one was Richard Feynman and even he questioned why we get so bizarre, abstract thoughts in the early morning. We can chalk it up as Hypnopomic, but it doesn't answer any question.
All I'm saying is, dreams can be irrational one day and make perfect sense the next, and it all depends on how you perceive them. What is logic anyway? Let Immanuel Kant solve that....
(I am comfortable knowing that I am an illogical human being... I am not a Vulcan!) :lol:
Dreams can be so illogical yet they make so much sense sometimes... go figure.
I like this discussion. I have no answer, but I like it!
I just had an epiphany.
It's so simple when you think about it.
Dreams are all about desires, logic is a whole new agenda and the two are in conflict!
We have to dream free and let our wildest desires run free! That's what keeps us sane!
You have to let go of logic. In fact, I wonder if that is what is stopping some beginners from lucid dreaming... they simply cant let go and become an illogical Alice in Wonderland the way many of us do without question.
Again I pose more questions than I have answers for...... But I love talks like this.
Summerlander wrote: Alan Worsley, we all know who he is, noticed an ambiguity that sometimes presents itself in lucid dreams. In one of his studies he attempted to carry out certain tasks whilst lucid dreaming in a sleep lab. Everything was monitored. In the lucid dream, he found himself outdoors, in the rain, and, despite remembering that he was asleep in the lab and having the test in mind, he worried about the equipment getting wet. Only upon awakening did he realise how absurd his reasoning had been: How could the equipment get wet in real life when the rain and the wetness that was experienced was as phantom as his dream body?
I have had quite a few experiences like that in lucid dreams, even after waking it took a while to realize that the things that happened, actually didn't really happen. In the good lucid dreams I am always struggling between the logical mind which has acknowledged that it is a dream and the 5 "dream" senses that are saying "but you are having all the normal inputs. Are you sure?" I think it's really fantastic to be watching and thinking about this tug of war as it's going on in real time. I've had times where it was just too confusing and I made myself wake up. When the sensory inputs are almost perfect in a dream, it's kind of hard to just accept that it's not real even though your logical mind knows it's a dream. I think the problem is that we're not used to denying what our 5 senses are telling us. One lucid dream comes to mind when I looked at my hands and had 6 fingers, then shouted "I knew this would happen sooner or later, awake and look, more than 5 fingers! No one is going to believe this!"
HAGART wrote: I just had an epiphany.
You have to let go of logic. In fact, I wonder if that is what is stopping some beginners from lucid dreaming... they simply cant let go and become an illogical Alice in Wonderland the way many of us do without question.
I do agree that we have to let go and not have too much of the conscious logical thought overriding the deeper subconscious processes. I like some of the lucid dreams where I'm not completely awake, still kind of "under" and the dream is more in control. Don't know how to describe it other than that. I still know I'm dreaming, but the experience is deeper and more insightful.
HAGART wrote: Dreams are all about desires, logic is a whole new agenda and the two are in conflict!
I'm actually going to disagree with myself. Because let's face it, some dreams are built upon fear and angst. Not really a desire that we long for. So I guess what I mean is that dreams are emotional and yet every now and then we become lucid. (Lucid literally means being able to think clearly between periods of confusion). Dreams can sometimes be periods of temporary insanity aren't they?
But even when we are 100% lucid with full detail and a sense of self.... we can still be illogical. Or there is a dream logic that just makes sense at the time when you are in the dream. I do find that if I over think things in the dream I snap out of it and wake up, and it's important to not think too logically in dreams if you want to prolong the dream and accomplish lucid dream goals.
I've once had a lucid dream about talking to a girl. Even though I knew I was going to wake up and that the girl only existed I wanted to photo her. She told me that "you can't bring anything from our world to yours". The DC told me there was no use in taking a photo, and did I listen? Nope :)
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If a device could fully integrate with our minds and provide all sensations, not just the 5 senses, but perspiration, hunger, even salivation, proprioception, balance and many more...... how is that different from how we define reality as we perceive it?<ahref="http://www.fundraise.com/enterprise"> http://www.fundraise.com</a>this is very useful.
HAGART wrote:
HAGART wrote:Dreams are all about desires, logic is a whole new agenda and the two are in conflict!
I'm actually going to disagree with myself. Because let's face it, some dreams are built upon fear and angst. Not really a desire that we long for. So I guess what I mean is that dreams are emotional and yet every now and then we become lucid. (Lucid literally means being able to think clearly between periods of confusion).
But the emotional is based on thoughts, whether it is fear or desire or anything else. So Im going to say its the thoughts which created the dream subconscious and conscious. The emotions which happen, further fuel the thoughts.
Im sure in most (more then half probably 3 quarters) of my LDs Im 100% myself consciously, I think just like I do in real life about things, I dont have bizarre thinking as Im fully aware of real life and what goes on there.
I did thou get confusion in this mornings LD as the LD split two ways on me so I thought I was both aware of my real physical body in bed as sometimes happens to me (but this time it was a half false awakening) at the same time I had awareness of the dream I was still in in other place and there too. It turned out that my awareness of my real body wasnt truely real. (I was feeling mucus in what Id thought was my real bodies throat which I picked out thinking it was real, didnt catch on that picking mucus out of my throat was bizarre (maybe to cause in real life I have had a rather bizarre mucus experience with a handful of extremely thick, jelly like mucus which came out of my mouth which I'd choked on). . Anyway..due to me mistaking something in the LD and also struggling to maintain the LD at that point, I called that part of my LD rather vague and low level (it happened towards the end of the LD just before I did really wake up) as usually I dont mistake things and get wrong ideas about reality in my LDs. My waking mind is usually clear of what is right between the dream world and the real world.
Due to most of my LDs having crystal clear thinking with no bizarre thoughts, Im going to say that its possible to be thinking exactly how one does in real life in them depending on how much waking concsciousness is coming in. If you are doing bizarre things, it just means your waking consciousness isnt coming fully into the LD and the subconciousness at that point is overriding things more. It is possible to have that perfect balance where you are FULLY aware and also in control of yourself with your dream (subconciousness) manifesting around you.
The lucid dreamer will always run the risk of losing consciousness by getting too involved in dream plots. It's like Rebecca said. Two conflicting agendas made to converge in a hybrid state of mind. The conscious and the unconscious (or subconscious as some of you might prefer).
Stabilise the lucid dream and you can either explore what's readily available plus subsequent involuntary manifestations, OR, have a plan that you can focus on and carry out. The former is the plan and the latter needs to be interesting as a plan.
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Your logical thinking is still a bit impaired in LD's as if yu were high on some psychedelic substance.
In a LD I wanted to walk outta my house but I heard my mother yelling.
My impaired judgment thought that i was my mother screaming in real life and that my mind had integrated tis yelling into the dream BUT....................................................... ......................... ...............................I have earplugs while I sleep
lucidinthe sky wrote: [quote
HAGART wrote:I just had an epiphany.
I like some of the lucid dreams where I'm not completely awake, still kind of "under" and the dream is more in control. Don't know how to describe it other than that. I still know I'm dreaming, but the experience is deeper and more insightful.
Yeah I had such a LD like yours in which I was working with the FBI and the military on very exciting missions. Everthing seemed so freaking real that I took my task in this dream more seriously. We also went to a biig public swimming pool with the military and got kinda drunk there, and ate nice pizza ( dont ask me which type because i cant remember much :)) amazing dream I must say :P :P
But now after a couple of months after this eventful and crazy dreamnight i barely remember shit :(
Another really trippy mindfuck which was mentioned in this thread discussion happens to me, which consist in that those few seconds you awake from a dream Im partially convinced that the dream action is true :shock: :shock:
Then after getting more and more lucid into waking alpha and beta waves im there in "facepalm-mood" :roll: :roll:
I know what you mean. It's a very peculiar state to be in. As soon as you wake up, you can still find yourself worrying about dream events that you just left!
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trippy shit I must say
Alan Worsley has just nailed the fact that we are not exactly the waking self in lucid dreams, but rather, something closer to it than the ego that inhabits ordinary dreaming--and certainly something that has a proclivity for dramatic fluctuation. :geek: