Are dream character's conscious?

I had some good talks with a few DC's recently, and am still trying to get in their heads and see what makes them tick. I used the term 'dream guide' to help find one. I'm still not sure what a dream guide is, or if the seemingly self-awareness that some dream characters have are just an illusion. Here's an interesting experience I had:

I became lucid in my own bed after a dream. I guess you could call it a DEILD, or like having a false awakening, but being lucid. I got up and went downstairs, and I wanted to meet a dream character that knew it was a dream and would seem self aware. Not those zombie-types... you know the ones I mean.

My family was sitting at a table and I asked them if there was a "Dream Guide" around for me to talk to. My mother handed me a picture in a frame and it was a picture of myself. She said your brother has one just like this. I was getting annoyed and said, no, that's not it. I walked around the house, looking around for someone to show up, and when I returned back to the table, my family was gone, but there was a stranger now sitting in a chair. He had long hair and seemed European. He reminds me of the bad guy from Ghostbusters II. For some reason he seemed familiar and I said, "You remind me of my first "dream guide". (I actually used air-quotes when I spoke, showing how skeptical I am). I'm confused about you." He replied, "But of course you are." I asked, "What do you think about? Do you have choices and make decisions?" He said, "Yes". I asked, "Give me an example... if you can". (I was skeptical he could and was starting to doubt him). He said, "I once made the squeakiest nylon." I had to ask, "The squeakiest nylon?!" He started to ramble on, and I didn't make sense of it, but I did hear what sounded like, 'You must force a choice'.... and then he said, 'You cannot force choices'....

Then I knew he was just contradicting himself, and he must have picked up on my feelings and knowing he was going to lose the argument he attacked me. He was on top of me and we wrestled, the visuals were going hay-wire as he morphed and disappeared, but I could still feel his weight on me. I tried to push him off, but he was too heavy despite not being able to see him anymore. I saw two nails and I was worried he was going to jab them in my eyes. I wasn't scared, but I could feel pain, so I knew I had to do something before he used those nails. (Just me thinking about it would have made it come true). I decided to alter my perception of what is up and what is down, and I was now 'on top', and pushing him 'down' into the ceiling. (I flipped gravity and felt good knowing my lucid powers were stronger than his!) We continued fighting for a while, and I eventually woke up.

Perhaps I was just fighting myself and wrestling with my own thoughts! Still, it would be nice to have a reoccurring dream guide type character that could help me out in the lucid dream world. But I question them too much and they don't like that! But I won't stop just yet. 8-)

Great thinking to flip up and down :) .

Do you ever when you get yourself in these situations just go "I got to just stop thinking about that" ...and use a stop of the thought to actually prevent something like getting nails in the eyes. (that sounded aweful).

My thoughts certainly alter dreams. And it can become like Murphy's Law, where if I think something bad will happen, it ends up of happening.

In retrospect, there are better ways to deal with a hostile dream character like that. I could have tried to reason with him, or think 'happy thoughts'. In the end, nobody won the fight. It was only broken by my awakening. So fighting was completely pointless. (But HE started it!)

And why did he fight me to begin with? I must have had thoughts that he would. A few days earlier I got attacked by some other dream characters that just lunge at me and start choking me. I don't know why.....

HAGART wrote: My thoughts certainly alter dreams. And it can become like Murphy's Law, where if I think something bad will happen, it ends up of happening.

In retrospect, there are better ways to deal with a hostile dream character like that. I could have tried to reason with him, or think 'happy thoughts'. In the end, nobody won the fight. It was only broken by my awakening. So fighting was completely pointless. (But HE started it!)

And why did he fight me to begin with? I must have had thoughts that he would. A few days earlier I got attacked by some other dream characters that just lunge at me and start choking me. I don't know why.....

I am glad that I rarely have dream characters in my lucid dreams, hearing tons of stories of dream characters suddenly attacking people.

There seems to be an ostensible connection between your desire to find a "dream guide" and finding your apparitional family in your lucid dream. The mother figure connotes conceiving and guidance. In this lucid dream scenario, the mother can be a source of valuable conceptions, and, its motherly presence is possibly indicative of the most prolific guide image your subconscious could produce at the time. However, you, the waking ego in the dream world, expected more. It may be that the mother figure was too familiar for your liking, perhaps you would have preferred a more unfamiliar apparition, like a total stranger. (Perhaps a tinge of mystery in the "dream guide" conception was amiss and would have been appreciated.)

Not entirely happy with what was presented before you at first glance, an assumption was made: the dream guide was yet to reveal itself. The mother figure, in my opinion, did reveal the real primogenitor, as it were, when she handed you the framed picture while adding that your sibling is alike. In short, she was saying (in answer to your question): "You're around, you're the guide."

Call it conjecture but it seems to me that lucid dreamers commonly search for answers in lucid dreams with certain expectations that add to the element of excitement and fantasy. Sometimes lucid dreams do provide some real, honest answers but they are not always satisfactory solutions by the waking ego's standards - not to mention that, at times, the 'revelations' are uncomfortable, and, even if truthful, are sometimes deemed to be unacceptable.

Are dream characters conscious? Well, what does it mean to be conscious when consciousness is poorly defined even by scientists? Picture this. You were awake when you drove to work today, but, were you conscious of the journey or on autopilot? What is that? Who took over when you were out? Before we can even begin to address the question of DC sentience, we need to philosophise about our own and what that means. Even if we never get the truth, at least we will always find value in our interactions with them, particularly whilst lucid dreaming.

Now, let's deal with Hagart's Vigo...(I couldn't resist the dub) :mrgreen:

Vigo and Hagart wrestle in lucid dreamland. Vigo appears to express a turmoil of contradictions, in part stemming from the everlasting debate between two distinct parts of Hagart's mind: the logical and the abstract. This source is obviously older, in fact since time (Hagart) began, and lies primordially at the roots of the mind. The other contributing reason for Vigo's conflicting expression and reckless behaviour is the more recent process of integrating new concepts vis-a-vis jettisoning old ones.

The lucid dreamer often has a challenge. I'm not exempt. Hagart's not exempt. Stephen LaBerge is not exempt. No lucid dreamer is! He or she may ask for answers or solutions but these tend to come encrypted in the lucid dream world. We often face the task of sussing out riddles generated by our unconscious minds. After all, the oneironaut has entered an alien world, one unlike the waking world in many respects, and its 'inhabitants' may speak the visitor's native language, but their 'vernacular' can be profoundly different. In a sense, we deal with another dimension and the rules are different.

"Squeakiest nylon" sounds like something the Mad Hatter would say, teasing the dreamer with words that may in fact hide something of value, or in the least lead to unconstrained ways of thinking which may inspire creativity and even churn out the very solutions we seek. It might be about unlocking something deep with your mind, and, in the process, grow as Alice did. You may want to start by asking yourself what "nylon" means to you (what comes to your head) and perhaps summon Vigo next time you visit that world and ask him where he's coming from with that. Never mind the fight you had with him, let bygones be bygones. He may not be much of a guide (if there is even such a thing), you may even beat him at simple maths, but befriend him and see what he has to share. I would.

Vigo expresses notions centreing upon free will - the strong illusion of making choices, and yet, having none as every choice requires causation. Perhaps there is a parallel clue here, an indirect link, or a suspicion deeply embedded in your mind: DCs (some of them) seem sentient, but perhaps this, too, is an illusion. I believe they can be useful regardless of whether or not they are conscious. Vigo may not seem to make much sense at first (perhaps ask him to be more explicit), and he would undoubtedly lose a logical debate against Hagart, but Vigo has the potential to inspire Hagart with his logically indigent abstractionism.

Summerlander wrote: "Squeakiest nylon" sounds like something the Mad Hatter would say, teasing the dreamer with words that may in fact hide something of value, or in the least lead to unconstrained ways of thinking which may inspire creativity and even churn out the very solutions we seek. It might be about unlocking something deep with your mind, and, in the process, grow as Alice did. You may want to start by asking yourself what "nylon" means to you (what comes to your head)

I realize I will never win a mental battle with a DC. Even "I", in a lucid dream, am not thinking 100% rationally, and they don't care to be reasonable anyway. The illogical statement, "I once made the squeakiest nylon", reminds me of some the the abstract thoughts I get during hypnagogia/hypnopompia. I sometimes wake up from those and wonder why I was thinking such a strange thought. I think dream characters tap into that same phenomenon, and speak as if they are experiencing those same abstract thoughts and ideas. (That's where it comes from, the subconscious). But "I" am separate and hear it in the dream and try to rationalize it.

What does it mean to me? I envision a man-made thread that is incredibly smooth, perfect, and not pitted at the microscopic level. I felt it was a scientific breakthrough he helped design. It's yellow and a single strand that is part of a rope. Perhaps smoother than anything else known to man. (I still don't know what that even means, but that's what I envision whenever I re-read it and think about it).

Summerlander wrote: when she handed you the framed picture while adding that your sibling is alike. In short, she was saying (in answer to your question): "You're around, you're the guide."

I interpreted the picture of myself to mean that I, myself, am the ultimate dream guide in a lucid dream too, but I didn't say it. I like to let others interpret it without my influence. That's probably why I was so hard on "Vigo" :lol: . I felt like, "Who's this guy think he is? He's a nobody. I'm the true god here in this dream!" (Sounds very arrogant and even now I feel some shame in it, which may be why he fought me). And when my mother said my brother has one just like it, I thought she was saying they are better than me, already achieving what I was seeking, which annoyed me. (I'm a middle child which can lead to a slight inferiority complex). :roll: And not all my lucid dreams are like this. I was acting particularly smug in this one. Which has enlightened me just now, because this whole time I was thinking HE was the smug one. No! He was feeding off my emotions. That's my theory anyway.

Summerlander wrote: Are dream characters conscious? Well, what does it mean to be conscious when consciousness is poorly defined even by scientists?

I was thinking at the time, that at the most basic level of any consciousness is some sort of a decision making capability. You have choice A and choice B and you make a decision. Plain and simple. Even ants could do that. Maybe I should ask something else next time. In fact, I already have in the past and should share some other lucid dream anecdotes. This isn't the first time I have questioned this.

I also wonder sometimes if my subconscious is conscious, or self aware to some extent. Perhaps not of the outside world, knowing capital cities, and celebrities and all that trivial stuff. Perhaps it is aware, but only of the internal workings of our minds. That's their whole world to them. And in dreams, we give it a form. And that form can be more in control of our dreams than "I" am. (Which is why I think a dream guide could be a helpful tool in a lucid dream).

I'll jump to the point in the dream where I start to converse with my 'dream characters'. But to give an idea of what type of dream it was, I ended a lucid dream and it faded, and I remained still and waited to see what would happen next and then I realized I was in bed, but still asleep, so I got up and walked away. A lot like an OBE. I find these OBE-type lucid dreams are far more vivid and 'concrete' or 'stable'.

So my plan was to talk to some dream characters and I must say I had a hard time getting out of the 'house' I was in, but managed to cut a hole in the wall with my finger. Then I was outside. Freedom! I was in an urban setting and I saw a public bus, so I hailed it and it actually stopped. I heard a voice from the bus say, 'Hey, this is not my stop!'. I walked over with extreme confidence and didn't care if I ruined someones 'busy schedule'; I was going to explain my purpose once I got on. Before I could enter, two doors opened in the front and mid section of the bus and many Chinese people flooded out. I said hello to them all as I got on and hoped there were some people left. Once on board I looked around and it was still full of people for me to talk to and all Chinese for some reason. (If you know my background I grew up in Hong Kong and 'felt at home there' even though I am 'Gwai Lo' <-- Google it up).

So I am on a city bus full of people and I announce to them all, "Do you guys know this is a dream?" They all answer, "Yes", but not in unison but the way a crowd of people would answer with each being slightly off timing of the other. Then I heard a laugh coming from the front of the bus and I looked over and saw the back of someone's head, the bus driver I assumed, and he had a giant poofy head of hair. It was brown hair, but it reminded me of a clown. I then joked with the rest of the passengers, "Then why am I not the one driving this thing!" *(It's an inside joke between me and myself. I often wonder who the true pilot of my body and my dreams is.... "me" or my subconscious? Am I, the ego-sense of self, just here for the ride all the time?) *

I forget what else I said, but I remember having a hard time wording it, and yet, every passenger intuitively knew what I was talking about.

I had a lapse in placement and the next thing I knew I was walking down a narrow street like 'Stanley Market' from Hong Kong and it was dark like night and everything was gritty and wet like most dilapidated Asian markets in HK where it rains a lot and they are outdoor markets. (I love that though and still felt at home). I was now talking to a voice coming from nowhere and I acted like I was holding a cell phone to my left ear, and I spoke with my subconscious over the 'phone'. I asked, "Are you my subconscious?" (I didn't expect a straight up answer), but a female voice said, "Yes." So I got deep and asked a question I had day dreamed about in the day. I asked, "From your point of view are you conscious and am I subconscious?" She laughed! She said, "You are barely conscious." I said, "So you think you're smarter than me?!" (I was just joking around and poking fun. I always think my DC's are smarter than me.) I asked, "Where are you now?" (Remembering I use to be on that bus). I then said, "I'm in Chinatown".* (I thought it would be hard to explain Stanley Market and Hong Kong to her as if she were a perfect stranger so I just simplified it for some reason).* She said, "I am nowhere." I said, "Do you want me to bring you here?" (Like creating a physical incarnation of her). She said, "Why don't you come here to the dead zone?" I was a little spooked by her word choice. I had to ask, "Did you say, 'Dead Zone'?" She said, "It's not as scary as traditions in Chinatown!"

I decided to try it.

I didn't know how, but the only thing I could think of was laying down and closing my eyes in the dream. I ended up seeing strange imagery very similar to what I am use to when I remain still with eyes closed after a lucid dream in hopes of another, which is the same way this one started. Finally, I decided to stop and I got up in a strange place I can only describe as a 'Grandmother's house with flower-motif furniture and teacups everywhere'. I willed a person to raise from the floor with my hand like sprouting a live person or dream character and it worked. She was a 4 foot tall, Asian woman, but with a few 'alien' features as well and more of a humanoid like in Star Trek. I asked, "Are you the same from before?"

She said, "No."

It ended very soon after.

Woah! I like that one. Lucid dreams like this is the reason why I enjoyed Robert Waggoner's book. I know you didn't do that here but I have thought about communicating with my subconscious using a phone in the lucid dream world. I find it deeply interesting, especially the words "dead zone."

Scientists have phone that if people stop thinking too hard about solving a problem and just let the "unconscious" side take over, those eureka moments will come unexpectedly! We have to remember that the higher cortical areas do a lot of thinking but are slow to act (slow response). However, closer to the primordial layer, there is not much thinking (dead zone) but the response is fast and intuitional. While the neocortex is more constrained by thinking patterns, the lower one contains a subconscious see of information where anything goes, and this zone often makes associations between concepts that the logical side wouldn't normally do.

Now get this: lucid dreaming provides the perfect opportunity to make sure that those unusual associations, mishmash of thoughts, and new ideas don't go unnoticed. We can probe unexplored areas of our minds and what's more, communication between waking self and subconscious mind can be established. After all, the corpus collosum connects both brain hemispheres.

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Using a phone to communicate with one's subconscious? That's a great idea! I'm going to have to try that. :) That sounds like a really cool dream Hagart, thanks for sharing it. I wish we could loan DCs to other oneironauts for a bit. I would loan you mine since they are pretty much always aware of what's going on and communicate logically. You could 'probe' them all you want! :lol: I wish I could get just a few more of those lesser-aware characters actually. It's not all that fun sometimes. They aren't impressed by anything. They say "Big deal, it's a dream. I can do that too. Anyone can." (Buzz kills :? ) And I have only gotten to try and convince a DC that they were dreaming once. Everyone else already knew. It can get kinda boring actually. :/

Summerlander wrote: We have to remember that the higher cortical areas do a lot of thinking but are slow to act (slow response). However, closer to the primordial layer, there is not much thinking (dead zone) but the response is fast and intuitional.

That would explain why dream characters answer questions and "I", the slower area of thinking, react to them and don't know where it came from. It's thinking faster than "I" in a dream, so they appear to have a separate consciousness.

I've used phones before in lucid dreams and they are a great way to talk. No need for a DC figure and feels like I am talking straight to my subconscious and cut out 'the middle man'. They also tend to talk without any personality and just state things matter-of-fact.

Vonozar wrote: I wish I could get just a few more of those lesser-aware characters actually. It's not all that fun sometimes. They aren't impressed by anything

I never thought of that, but I suppose you're right. It would get boring if they always knew it was a dream and your lucid powers and 'magic tricks' never impressed them. That's some of my favorite things to do when I become lucid around others in a dream. I like to show off my 'powers'. But I've had some dreams where they DC's are aware it's a dream, and they are not impressed.

Summerlander wrote:

Scientists have phone that if people stop thinking too hard about solving a problem and just let the "unconscious" side take over, those eureka moments will come unexpectedly! We have to remember that the higher cortical areas do a lot of thinking but are slow to act (slow response). However, closer to the primordial layer, there is not much thinking (dead zone) but the response is fast and intuitional. While the neocortex is more constrained by thinking patterns, the lower one contains a subconscious see of information where anything goes, and this zone often makes associations between concepts that the logical side wouldn't normally do.

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Thanks for sharing that. :)

HAGART wrote:

I never thought of that, but I suppose you're right. It would get boring if they always knew it was a dream and your lucid powers and 'magic tricks' never impressed them. That's some of my favorite things to do when I become lucid around others in a dream. I like to show off my 'powers'. But I've had some dreams where they DC's are aware it's a dream, and they are not impressed.

Exactly. It's rare that I get to impress them, but it's fun! I wonder if I asked them to 'be dumb unless I tell you otherwise' what they would do. I enjoy the :shock: :o :shock: looks they give in those circumstances when you suddenly hover off the floor. :lol: However if I did that, I don't think it would be the same. I'd know they were just acting surprised based on how they are usually. That or they would just ask why and I would be like "Because I want to see your surprised face when I...Um, I mean I want to act all awesome and watch as you...freak out... OH YOU KNOW WHAT NEVER MIND!!!" . So to all of you who take them for granted, enjoy your 'zombies'! They're pretty darn fun! ;)

Ok but how about this. In my ld this morning i walked up to a lady who was sitting in the middle of the street and she could not see me. Every one else in the dream could see me but her. Has any one experienced this?

However i do remember me thinking a few seconds before that happened " hey i can just walk past the people and they wont even know".I did not conciously desire that though. Did i somehow willed her not to see me by sayong that even though i did not really plan to think that?

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It is important to remember that it is not just desire that makes things happen in dreams. There are other emotions like fear and unconscious 'what ifs.' After all, lucid dreams also have the potention to bring painful and scary experiences. Unless, of course, on a deeper level we are masochistically in love with chaos and mystery - just as we vicariously love the drama shown on TV.

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Hagart, that bit with you talking to your subconscious over the phone is AWESOME. Perhaps the most interesting and direct confrontation with the subconscious I've heard of yet. I'll try that, but it'd be hard to tell whether it's actually my subconscious or something else. When she called her living place "the dead zone," it gave me the chills. It's so eerie! But I get the creeping intuition that you stumbled upon something monumental. (Unless you experienced something during the day having to with the phrase "the dead zone," in which case it'd just be residue; left overs.) I've also speculated that the subconscious is merely "the dark half" or "reciprocal" of the conscious and that, from its point of view, WE are the subconscious. It's kind of scary thinking about it. The most pure, rawest form of yourself ... a mostly insane, but direct, concise, and ***vastly ***intelligent dark half, sleeping during the day, and ranting during the night.

Summerlander wrote: Unless, of course, on a deeper level we are masochistically in love with chaos and mystery - just as we vicariously love the drama shown on TV.

Yeah, I think that too. It explains why tragedy, as a dramatic element, is appealing. And here's something terrible that I've never admitted to anyone before: Whenever I first hear of something horrible happening ... deep *deep ****deep ***down there is this *tiny * little flare ... of excitement--and I could almost say glee. And then, of course, the proper response kicks in: horror, dread, misery. My dark half resonating from deep within?

It seems to be a viable explanation indeed. Perhaps a primitive side stemming from the glee experienced by our tribal ancestors whenever the enemy was defeated. We inherited that from them but, since the world has become more united, in a sense, it has atrofied and it is barely a guilty pleasure. We naturally repress our sadomasochism. (But it still finds expression in dreams, art, and religion - the latter having a tortured Christ on the cross to pay for our sins and millions worshipping the image.

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deschainXIX wrote: (Unless you experienced something during the day having to with the phrase "the dead zone," in which case it'd just be residue; left overs.)

No, it wasn't. Good thing you ask though, to clear it up, because that 'residue' can happen all the time, and I usually know it came from a recent memory. But this time it didn't. My only knowledge of 'The Dead Zone' is a book by Stephen King, but I never read it and don't even know what it's about! But intuitively, I got the feeling it meant a void space, or nowhereland.

So dream characters are just our subconscious... Much like we are when we are non-lucid. So where is the line between US and the dream characters? Or is there even one? And, in that regard, couldn't a DC become lucid, like us?

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deschainXIX wrote: And, in that regard, couldn't a DC become lucid, like us?

Some are lucid and know it's a dream, and others do not. Just like "I" can be lucid or not lucid in a dream. Do they have a sense of "I", too, in a dream if they are lucid? A sense of self, even if it's short lived?

Can it go the other way around? Can a DC be lucid in a dream of mine where, I myself am not lucid? I have an example from a dream:

I was at a party with strangers, and trying to find food to eat since every time I looked down at my plate it was gone! I kept thinking someone was taking it away before I had a chance to finish it. I went to the kitchen and there were plates there with food still on it, so I decided I would just take one and eat it. (Complete nonsense, and I wasn't lucid, but the dream was very vivid and over a page long in my dream journal).

One guy in the kitchen told me I was being a fool, and I was "barely conscious" (exact words). I took offense since I knew I was sober. (Thought he was accusing me of being drunk...)

After I woke up I wondered.... was that DC lucid? He did stand out more than the others in retrospect, but I wasn't lucid at the time to know it. Or it could just be a common phrase I hear because that's truly how I feel. But still, it's uncanny that the DC used the exact wording as from my other dream. I'll look up the exact dates they happened, and see how far apart they were. I'll edit and add later... The first was Sept. 11, 2013, and this one was Oct. 27, 2013. Over a month apart.

It is true that we can find both zombie-types as well as ostensible sentience in dream characters when we are lucid. And, in ordinary dreams, the majority of the characters are convincingly full of life while we appear to be mentally impaired (although having a normal dream about zombies is also possible).

But I wonder if any of you have noticed the following, which, in my experience, is quite common at the start of a DILD. Do you recall times when you have just discovered that you are dreaming right in the middle of a lively interaction with a dream character/s, and, in that moment of clarity, the character/s just pause (some stare at you) in eerie silence?

If you know what I am talking about, you will also recall the strange sensation that you have somehow stolen their conscious vitality with your lucidity. And then, when you interact with them, you may allow them a small response, knowing that allowing yourself to be mesmerised by signs of sentience and intelligence in them may cost you the gradual loss of your mental faculties. It is worth bearing in mind that the lucid dream state is not a stable one. It fluctuates. Effort is required to make it stable and optimal.

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It just doesn't make sense to me, if a DC can be conscious... Because, at that moment, they'd become part of us right? Like--literally--a mental Siamese twin... It just doesn't pan out... And why, if they are like us in this sense, does lucidity vary between them? Shouldn't they all be universally enlightened? It does make sense that they can make us lucid, like we can make them lucid. And sometimes they don't believe us, but I've heard stories where DC's try to convince people and they don't believe them. But that's interesting, Summerlander, I've never experienced that. But it may be due, in part, to the fact that I've never been in an actual face-to-face conversation with a DC and become lucid. But I'll observe my surrounding DCs next time...

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Summerlander wrote: Do you recall times when you have just discovered that you are dreaming right in the middle of a lively interaction with a dream character/s, and, in that moment of clarity, the character/s just pause (some stare at you) in eerie silence?

I never noticed this either. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just never noticed. I should read my dream journals and see if it ever did happen. That's what they're for!

I was trying to think of other questions to ask, to probe the DC's mind, but then I thought, why don't I just ask this very same question directly to one and see how they answer. My next LD Challenge: Ask a person in my dream (one that is lucid and knows it's a dream) whether they are conscious. (Do they have a sense of self and to them, am I the stranger?) They'll say something crazy, and it will be interesting. I'll post the reply here and feel free to do the same and post your own.

Or maybe dream characters, despite potentially unlocking useful material from the subconscious, are not conscious at all. Maybe in lucid dreams consciousness is more localised or more concentrated at one perceived point, a proprioceptory one. In ordinary dreams, it is more dispersed, like a low-frequency wave.

Dream characters may not be conscious entities at all, but rather, dream figures like any other which convey semblances of what we have been exposed to in waking life.

Maybe the consciousness that we appear to detect in DCs is nothing but the reflection of an active theory of mind, our necessity to recognise other human beings in real life as having a mind of their own, too.

Thus, when it comes to dream characters, the case may be that we are experiencing nothing more than dream pareidolia.

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One thing I have noticed with dream characters is that they never have to think about what they are going to say. They just say it. They may pause, but they never appear to be thinking of how to word something. That's very telling. Perhaps they are just figments of our imagination, and the words are coming from the language center of our brains, and we are the ones who give them life in the dream, because we are social creatures and that's what we are use to. Still puzzling how it works.

In the article, "Ask the Experts", I was the one who posed the second question, about certain dream characters that seem self-aware. http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ask-the-experts-december-2013.html I liked the responses, and you, Summerlander, would agree since your theory is basically the same. And I looked up 'pareidolia' and we all certainly do see faces in things. It's human nature. (Some say it's from survival instincts in the wild, but that's other topic).

The fact of the matter is, nobody is 100% certain of the answer. The sense of identity I have, the 'self' is also a fabrication of my mind when I truly think about it. (Just neurons firing). Why can't the brain create other 'selves' briefly from time to time? (Another, short-lived firing of neurons in the right pattern to create a personality in a dream).

If a brain made the concept of 'me', maybe it creates others too from time to time..... (But then again, why do I always have the same point of view of 'me' in a dream and not as a fabricated dream character? Or are non-lucid dreams when I am that fabricated 'dream character'...???!?! :shock: I'm certainly not 'me' in a non-lucid dream.) I just keep coming up with more questions and need to think about it. In fact, it's getting late. I will sleep on it! Let my mind wrestle with that, while "I" am not there..., but if "I" do show up, then I'll start asking questions directly in the dream. ;)

I know what you mean, and I can't argue against your proposition because it could be true - especially when multiple personality disorder is a real condition. Our problem here is that what we are debating about hinges on the subject of consciousness, which still puzzles scientists all over the world. And that bugs me. It really does. It is a fun subject to discuss but I fear that the two of us will not get to the bottom of it here. We don't even have the means to test our theories. Even scientists encounter problems when studying consciousness. Consciousness has got to be the biggest mystery of all.

Scientists are now interested in lucid dreamers because we are giving them clues about the mechanics of the brain and consciousness itself. It is their job to find out and they might even find clues in what we speculate about - after all, lucid dreaming has turned us into deep thinkers - so that in itself is life changing. The impact the lucid dream state has on us is quite profound.

At best, what we can do, as oneironauts, is to experiment with lucid dreaming for clues. And then we can philosophise - as we have been doing all along.

And it's a lot of fun. ;)

This of course is not science and we are just philosophizing for the fun of it. I had another lucid dream, a few days before the first one I mentioned in this thread. It too was an interesting discussion, trying to figure out if dream characters are capable of independent thought. I kept asking, "What do you think about?"

(This took place in a dimly lit dream version of my own back yard. It wasn't visually realistic, and morphed a lot. If it's in quotes it's pretty much verbatim to the best of my knowledge, but otherwise I had to paraphrase.)

There was a boy, and I asked him his name. It started with a G or J sound. I asked, What do you think about? He said, he likes building things. I thought to myself, when I am building, and creating that must make him happy. He is an aspect of my own psyche.

Then I said, "who want's to live forever"?

Then it ended.

(I'm not sure how to interpret it, but I had a lucid dream earlier that night and was talking to someone about how you wouldn't want to live forever, so it was probably 'residual' from that).

I feel like my question, "What do you think about", could be changed to, "What do you represent", a common question people ask of their dream characters, and it essentially has the same meaning. I've heard others report similar lucid dreams where they feel they are contacting aspects of their own psyche and each represents something. Whether true or not, it certainly feels that way.

Interesting and typical abstractionist responses from those characters. The US-Canada thing appears to be an element of a possible new reality in your mind created from exposure and memory of real things in waking life. Even if it was just a fragment. Then you got a name that rhymes with delirium which leads me to surmise that perhaps a part of you suspect the characters to be "delirious" or even nonsensical.

About seeing or recognising aspects of oneself in lucid dreams...yes definitely. I get that too. There is a degree of truth in what Robert Waggoner tslks about in "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway To The Inner." - It might have been a bit New Age in certain parts but it was definitely a good read and I'd recommend it. It is a lucid dreamer's perspective and he conveys it quite well.

I'd say you are a little more sceptical than he is, you have your doubts and uncertainties where they are duly justified and that isn't a bad thing.

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It is ideal to keep oneself grounded to the evidence as far as it goes no matter how much one speculates. Whether conscious or not, the lucid dream certainly speaks to us in many ways. It has the power to create convincing realities. But being lucid is also rooted in seeing through the illusion...or even seeing what we'd like to see whether we're aware of it or not.

It is worth remembering John Nash, who pretty much 'dreamt' during the waking state and mixed reality with delusion and hallucination. There was a Commie conspiracy and anyone wearing a red tie was part of the secret organisation out to get him. He never really got rid of some of the characters that appeared absolutely real to him - some of which claimed to really exist and complained about being ignored - but what saved him from being completely engulfed by his schizophrenia was a moment of lucidity. Something didn't add up. With meds he managed to stay lucid and distinguish reality from mental fiction.

Some of you may think schizophrenia is irrelevant but there are parallels between it and lucid dreaming (even in brain activity), but, of course, the latter is the safer state.

Just like a dreamer can face his nightmares when armed with lucidity, so can the schizophrenic (often with a little medical assistance).

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I think I read somewhere that lucid dreams are as close as a sane person can get to experiencing madness.

Tend to agree with this and imagine the horror of not knowing, instead of reality checks you would be doing dream checks and not knowing what was what.

DC's and being conscious, no more or no less that you as the dreamer are. There is an equal level in most cases or is in time. I have lost the dumb DC's now and they are very rare. I feel that the lucid dream is a visual language and I am learning to speak it better and so the questions I can ask are getting more intelligent and the exploration is becoming intuitive.

Yes, lucid dreaming definitely gives the sane person an idea about madness. And regardless of the consciousness business, lucid dreaming undoubtedly speaks to the oneironaut in profound ways. I've just come upon an interesting lucid dream in my journal where I'd made contact with a dream character:

"... I fell asleep during a meditative exercise and began to dream about having travelled to Portugal with my mother and trying to help my brother-in-law’s brother, Rui, to steer clear of drugs. In the dream, Rui was very thin and didn’t look well. In reality, he’s rehabilitated and is a happier family man. Looking back, there is nothing odd about this dream because it sort of reflects what I had been discussing with my mother over the phone before bedtime.

She is helping my cousin Riv to beat his drug addiction just like she helped Rui years ago. Riv wants to move forward in life and so far he’s been cooperative. The dream seems to reflect the conversation that me and my mother had. I remember telling Rui, in the dream, that he needed to eat. After that, I went for a walk in what I took to be my birthplace, Oporto. I was walking alongside a river, and, as I beheld a metallic bridge looming in the distance, I felt lost and couldn’t figure out my way back. That feeling of being lost suddenly seemed familiar.

I remembered saying to myself once that if I felt lost again I’d do a reality check. Bam! I became lucid when I realised it was one of my dream signs. The river, the bridge, the city and the sky were now crystal clear. I appreciated the exquisite beauty of sunlight being reflected by the river and yet the sun was nowhere to be found. I knew I had something to do or somewhere to be but couldn’t remember my plan. I was standing on a concrete pavement, rubbing my hands together, when a group of lads emerged from behind and jogged past me. They laughed and conversed with one another as though sentient and oblivious to my presence. This aroused my curiosity, and, although one might say that the dream figures distracted me from remembering my plan of action, what followed, in a sense, suggests that the unconscious mind prevented me from distracting myself with a plan of action and might have nudged me in the right direction of focusing on something else which might prove to be more important or urgent.

As the men were running uphill I shouted, “hey, you… wait!” One of them stopped while the others continued to run and disappeared. The character who seemed to have heard me turned around and walked towards me. He was a colossal Caucasian man, of muscular build and sporting short blonde hair. “Who are you?”, I said. He was frowning and replied in an angry tone: “Who am I?” He looked like he was going to hit me so I repeated my question. Finally, he divulged: “I am the part of you that tries to understand”. I was confused by this statement. Understand what? Before I could ask him to elaborate, the jogger began to decrease in stature and turned into a black man simultaneously. His arms and hands, however, seemed to have grown and he used them to grab me like I was a little ball before throwing me in the river.

I heard the splash and remained submerged when I realised that I could still breathe. Suddenly, I became aware of a predominantly blue tunnel made of patterned water waves and ripples. I became aware of concentric circles that conveyed depth and saw that there was a long way to go in order to reach the light at the end. As I looked at the water walls of this tunnel, I noticed colourless flower buds and petals of a crystalline nature and my observation appeared to change their protruding shapes as well as the patterns on the walls. I felt compelled to glide towards the distant peculiar light at the end. This attractive shiny speck was surrounded by swirling vibrant patterns of harmonious fluid.

These patterns provided a contrast against the peaceful still light that beckoned me and I was like a child who couldn’t take his eyes off the new toy. I began to shift towards the light and the thought of fouling before I could reach it crossed my mind. With that, I regained physical awareness."

I relived the experience in my mind and pondered about what it meant or represented. I wished I had asked the dream character what he tries to understand. Everything perhaps? Maybe I can meet him again. What would he look like? Would he continue to be a shape-shifter? Then I thought about the possible symbolism reflected in this lucid dream from all the dream dictionaries I’ve perused in the past since my mother’s interest in dream interpretation rubbed off on me from an early age. Could my subconscious have adopted and used that language in order to reflect what is really going on inside me?

The angry muscular man image could suggest that I am more set in my beliefs than I realised, and this, although establishing assuredness and a sense of certainty, can be limiting. By addressing this aspect of myself I may have unlocked and acknowledged the side of me that is “in the dark” about things and repressed or hidden - hence the black man. If a step towards unlocking content from the deep unconscious took place then it was an important step. Was the act of being thrown in the water by the black man image a push in the right direction?

The black man could also indicate the termination of clinging to certain beliefs and being open to other perspectives. The shape-shifting could indeed reflect my fickle nature or my progression in this journey. Perhaps embracing uncertainty is the best bet until a breakthrough or discovery is made. Did that character herald the path to the revelation of unconscious drives, the mysterious depths of the mind and the inner workings of reality?

The patterns of the underwater tunnel could reflect my mind’s inner structure, primordial, symbolic, with the concentric circles amongst the geometric patterns representing wholeness, infinity, continuity, connection, perfect balance - and perhaps, ultimately, the ideal self. The light at the end of the tunnel could indicate clarity and insight. Although this lucid dream was brief, it is abundant in symbolism and the answers, if one can call them that, may be staring me right in the face.

The water environment could convey the inner flow of my very nature. Traditionally, water also stands for emotions, life force, and suggests cleansing. I can also think of constant change, malleability and adaptability. The crystalline flower forms suggest a source of creation. The cool colour blue can be thought to represent infinite possibilities, spiritual development, open-mindedness and wisdom (remember Absolem, the blue caterpillar in “Alice in Wonderland”). Perhaps I was being ’pushed’ towards this as a step towards self-integration.

Finally, we have the river, which can symbolise the course of one’s life, and, it flows towards something greater - the ocean… the deep unconscious that drives us. If there is one thing I can be sure of in my lucid dreaming exploration so far is that, apart from being inspirational, it makes me think a hell of a lot about everything and this may be the natural aftereffect of a highly aroused cerebral cortex phase - the phase state (hybrid stage of brain activity which gives rise to lucid dreams and out-of-body experiences).

Brief but profound. So I drew it...

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Now here is a quote from an avid and experienced lucid dreamer that I think we should bear in mind because, as a reminder, it helps us to not lose sight about the nature of dreaming as far as we can tell:

"As lucid dreamers create the reality of lucid dreaming, they observe how beliefs strongly affect that environment. For example, in college, I read the Russian writer P.D. Ouspensky's assertion that a person could not recall his or her name in the dream state. I wondered about this. During my next lucid dream, I consciously recalled his assertion and lucidly found a pen and paper. "Robert," I wrote easily, and then I beban to write, "Watt," hesitated for a moment, thinking, "That's not right," scratched it out, consciously recalled my last name, and quickly jotted "Waggoner." Stephen LaBerge reports reading Ouspensky's book and notes that lucid dreamers who apparently believed in Ouspensky's assumption failed to announce their name in a lucid dream. He himself, not believing in Ouspensky's suggestion, had no trouble announcing his name. Undoubtedly, your ideas and beliefs have a major impact on your experiences in the lucid dreaming environment. Though many assert that in lucid dreams you can do whatever you want, as a practical matter, your lucid dream actions will be limited by your beliefs."

• Robert Waggoner; "Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self"

If we are limited by our beliefs when we lucid dream, then isn't it possible that our personal DCs respond according to our worldviews when they happen to be coherent? So Hagart's DCs might claim sentience and strongly exude the illusion of conscious individuals inhabiting a dream world, and the shape-shifter in my lucid dream above expressed exactly the very thing that my mind tends to niggle over: the unknown. Perhaps it visually represented my own curiosity, or at least in part.

Peter wrote: DC's and being conscious, no more or no less that you as the dreamer are. There is an equal level in most cases or is in time. I have lost the dumb DC's now and they are very rare. I feel that the lucid dream is a visual language and I am learning to speak it better and so the questions I can ask are getting more intelligent and the exploration is becoming intuitive.

I've noticed the DC's in my dreams tend to reflect my mood and expectations. (Of course sometimes they completely surprise us, and throw us into rivers!) But most of the time it doesn't matter how I or they word things. I tend to just know intuitively what they mean and vice versa. Why do we even use words at all in a dream? I once tried to speak only in my mind to a DC in a dream and see if they could hear me, but they didn't. (That was probably my own expectations stopping me, like from Robert Waggoner's quote). Perhaps in time, after questioning their existence, and getting to know the true nature of how they form, they will change in time, and not be the same again. My dream characters and I will exhaust the discussion and there will be no need in the future for it. It's a phase lucid dreamers should go through, instead of taking them as divine, all knowing beings that we should all revere. We should keep in mind that they are really just US all along, but with a clear mind. They don't seem to have an ego bogging them down at all, which is why they give such great insights without lies. (Even if we don't want to hear it). Although confusing at times, I can't imagine a dream character lying. They have nothing to gain.

Perhaps they are ourselves without the ego, and the ego, is 'us' in a lucid dream viewing it. In fact, I just looked up ego: **The part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity. ** That sounds like me in a lucid dream, looking at the unconscious world I never made. But it didn't say, non-conscious, only un-conscious. Perhaps an unconscious can awaken.....

Hmmm...perhaps "unconscious" from the ego perspective. The ego will also claim everything for itself. Consciousness, free will... How influenced are we by this unconscious side. Moreover, how influenced by the external environment is this unconscious mind before some of its content presents itself to the waking ego through conscious thinking, eureka moments, and lucid dreaming?

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I'll let my dream character speak for me. I agree with her statement.

HAGART wrote: She laughed! She said, "You are barely conscious."